The statute of Finwe and Miriel

[Ricardo]

I think there are some inconsistencies, or maybe it's not clear or I got it wrong.



In Laws and Customs, it's said that elves marriages last while Arda lasts. Elves in principle cannot remarry.



But then we have Finwe and Miriel, Miriel died so Finwe wanted to marry again but he couln't because his marriage to Miriel was still valid.



so the status of the 3 parties involved are, after Finwe married Miriel:

Finwe: married to Miriel

Miriel: married to Finwe

Indis: single



The Miriel's fea goes to the halls of Mandos, the status doesn't change.



But then the Valar issue the statute of Finwe and Miriel, under it, Miriel vows to never be re-embodied and her marriage to Finwe is nullified. So then:

Finwe: single

Miriel: single (in the halls of Mandos)

Indis: single



Then Finwe marries Indis so:

Finwe: married to Indis

Miriel: single

Indis: married to Finwe



Then Finwe dies but their statuses don't change.



Then, in order to allow Miriel to be re-embodied, Finwe agrees to not be re-embodied himself.



And here is where I find the inconsistencies. At this point, Finwe was married to Indis, not to Miriel, if both him and Miriel were re-embodied he wouldn't have 2 wives because his marriage to Miriel was ended before he could marry Indis.



Of course there would be the issue of Finwe loving both and that could be a reason why he remained in the halls of Mandos, but the statute at this point did not prevent both from being re-embodied.



Am I missing something?

 

[ZehnWaters]

I think there are some inconsistencies, or maybe it's not clear or I got it wrong.



In Laws and Customs, it's said that elves marriages last while Arda lasts. Elves in principle cannot remarry.



But then we have Finwe and Miriel, Miriel died so Finwe wanted to marry again but he couln't because his marriage to Miriel was still valid.



so the status of the 3 parties involved are, after Finwe married Miriel:

Finwe: married to Miriel

Miriel: married to Finwe

Indis: single



The Miriel's fea goes to the halls of Mandos, the status doesn't change.



But then the Valar issue the statute of Finwe and Miriel, under it, Miriel vows to never be re-embodied and her marriage to Finwe is nullified. So then:

Finwe: single

Miriel: single (in the halls of Mandos)

Indis: single



Then Finwe marries Indis so:

Finwe: married to Indis

Miriel: single

Indis: married to Finwe



Then Finwe dies but their statuses don't change.



Then, in order to allow Miriel to be re-embodied, Finwe agrees to not be re-embodied himself.



And here is where I find the inconsistencies. At this point, Finwe was married to Indis, not to Miriel, if both him and Miriel were re-embodied he wouldn't have 2 wives because his marriage to Miriel was ended before he could marry Indis.



Of course there would be the issue of Finwe loving both and that could be a reason why he remained in the halls of Mandos, but the statute at this point did not prevent both from being re-embodied.



Am I missing something?

I feel like the marriage to Míriel wasn't dissolved, it was in forbearance.

 

[Ricardo]

I think Laws and customs says is has to be dissolved. But I might be wrong.

 

[ZehnWaters]

I think Laws and customs says is has to be dissolved. But I might be wrong.

But they don't ever say that. That's why Finwë has to stay dead.

 

[WatcherWraith]

I think there are some inconsistencies, or maybe it's not clear or I got it wrong.



In Laws and Customs, it's said that elves marriages last while Arda lasts. Elves in principle cannot remarry.



But then we have Finwe and Miriel, Miriel died so Finwe wanted to marry again but he couln't because his marriage to Miriel was still valid.



so the status of the 3 parties involved are, after Finwe married Miriel:

Finwe: married to Miriel

Miriel: married to Finwe

Indis: single



The Miriel's fea goes to the halls of Mandos, the status doesn't change.



But then the Valar issue the statute of Finwe and Miriel, under it, Miriel vows to never be re-embodied and her marriage to Finwe is nullified. So then:

Finwe: single

Miriel: single (in the halls of Mandos)

Indis: single



Then Finwe marries Indis so:

Finwe: married to Indis

Miriel: single

Indis: married to Finwe



Then Finwe dies but their statuses don't change.



Then, in order to allow Miriel to be re-embodied, Finwe agrees to not be re-embodied himself.



And here is where I find the inconsistencies. At this point, Finwe was married to Indis, not to Miriel, if both him and Miriel were re-embodied he wouldn't have 2 wives because his marriage to Miriel was ended before he could marry Indis.



Of course there would be the issue of Finwe loving both and that could be a reason why he remained in the halls of Mandos, but the statute at this point did not prevent both from being re-embodied.



Am I missing something?

I went and looked up what The Tolkien Gateway had to aay about this. It's one of the most accurate websites, in my experience. Here is a screenshot of the relevant information. I hope it helps.

 

[WatcherWraith]

I feel like the marriage to Míriel wasn't dissolved, it was in forbearance.

The marriage was dissolved. Apparently, being equals, elven males and females found being with more than one of the opposite sex abhorrent, or at the very least very abnormal. It took 12 years before the annulment of Finwë's and Miriel's marriage was completed, and only a few years after that, Finwë married Indis.

The annulment, it states, could only take place if one of the couple was unbodied, intended to remain so, and gave their consent for their partner to remarry. Those three things had to take place, since for elves marriage was a life-long thing, and elves can reincarnate after death, meaning marriage lasts even after death unless those three conditions take place. This is why Finwë had to take Miriel's place if she was to be re-bodied as she wished.

For other races, things would have to be different. Though the dwarves believed their kings could pass down part of themselves(or their essence) through their names[hence the many Durins], they could not reincarnate, nor could men or any other mortal race. Elves were unique and therefore had unique rules.

 

[Ricardo]

The marriage was dissolved. Apparently, being equals, elven males and females found being with more than one of the opposite sex abhorrent, or at the very least very abnormal. It took 12 years before the annulment of Finwë's and Miriel's marriage was completed, and only a few years after that, Finwë married Indis.

The annulment, it states, could only take place if one of the couple was unbodied, intended to remain so, and gave their consent for their partner to remarry. Those three things had to take place, since for elves marriage was a life-long thing, and elves can reincarnate after death, meaning marriage lasts even after death unless those three conditions take place. This is why Finwë had to take Miriel's place if she was to be re-bodied as she wished.

For other races, things would have to be different. Though the dwarves believed their kings could pass down part of themselves(or their essence) through their names[hence the many Durins], they could not reincarnate, nor could men or any other mortal race. Elves were unique and therefore had unique rules.

Yes, but that was my point. When Finwe died he was no longer married to Miriel. If both had been re-embodied, Finwe would have had only one wife: Indis and Miriel would have been free to marry again.

Of course, if would have been an uncomfortable situation with Finwe professing that he loved both, but not against the laws.

 

[WatcherWraith]

As I understood the text, the annulment of Finwë's and Miriel's marriage only lasted as long as one of them was continuously dead, which was why Finwë had to take her place. If both were alive, the marriage rules according to the Valar would have reinstated them as husband and wife, as the elves believe marriage to be a lifelong bond. And if one of the partners comes back to life while the other is still alive, their bond continues.

So: if Miriel was rebodied, then Finwë was rebodied, then Finwë would have two wives, just one reinstated from the past and one current.

The annulment only lasts as long as the consenting dead allow it to last. Once they come back, they've reentered life and reentered their connection of matrimony. I guess this means elves were careful about whom they chose to marry....

Anyway, I hope this wasn't too confusing. I tried to explain how I interpret the text clearly. Do tell me if there's something I missed

 

[ZehnWaters]

The marriage was dissolved.

Then why would one of them need to stay dead? The marriage was dissolved.

Apparently, being equals, elven males and females found being with more than one of the opposite sex abhorrent, or at the very least very abnormal.

I'm not sure what being equals (or not) has to do with it.

It took 12 years before the annulment of Finwë's and Miriel's marriage was completed, and only a few years after that, Finwë married Indis.

The annulment, it states, could only take place if one of the couple was unbodied, intended to remain so, and gave their consent for their partner to remarry. Those three things had to take place, since for elves marriage was a life-long thing, and elves can reincarnate after death, meaning marriage lasts even after death unless those three conditions take place. This is why Finwë had to take Miriel's place if she was to be re-bodied as she wished.

I'm well aware of the conditions placed on them. The Statute of Finwë & Míriel is one of my favourite writings by Tolkien.

As I understood the text, the annulment of Finwë's and Miriel's marriage only lasted as long as one of them was continuously dead, which was why Finwë had to take her place. If both were alive, the marriage rules according to the Valar would have reinstated them as husband and wife, as the elves believe marriage to be a lifelong bond. And if one of the partners comes back to life while the other is still alive, their bond continues.

Hence my statement it wasn't dissolved but in forbearance. If it reactivates the moment the dead one comes back, it's not dissolved.

 

[WatcherWraith]

I'll post where I got my information from. Maybe that'll help :]

This is the entirety of the Statute, and may explain the answers to your questions.
If it does not, my apologies.

 

[ZehnWaters]

I'll post where I got my information from. Maybe that'll help :]

View attachment 43980

This is the entirety of the Statute, and may explain the answers to your questions.
If it does not, my apologies.

I think the issue is with the phrasing Tolkien, himself, used. Dissolution implies it's gone. If it can reactivate then it's in forbearance. Unless I'm missing a definition of dissolution? I mean, he even says "dissolved for ever". If that's not permanent, then how is it dissolved "for ever"?

 

[WatcherWraith]

Hmm. Good question. I'm personally unsure how to answer that one. I think you're right, perhaps Tolkien should have used the term "forbearance". If I ever run into this statute in one of my Tolkien books and there's more information, I'll come back and post it and we'll see if that answers the issues presented.
Thank you for the discussion :]

 

[Ricardo]

Good points from everyone, and I think that considering it a forbearance solves the issue. I can see a practical reason too, if both Miriel and Finwe have been re-embodied it would be a very difficult situation.

I can also guess that one of the reasons why Miriel wanted to remain with Vaire was to not meet Indis or any of her descendants.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Good points from everyone, and I think that considering it a forbearance solves the issue. I can see a practical reason too, if both Miriel and Finwe have been re-embodied it would be a very difficult situation.

I can also guess that one of the reasons why Miriel wanted to remain with Vaire was to not meet Indis or any of her descendants.

She may have also been avoiding Finarfin in particular as he was now king of the Noldor in Aman. Some of the remaining Noldor may have also blamed her via her son for what happened.

 

[Frandîr]

Where can we find the physical manuscript of the Statute?

 

[Elthir]

Of the Laws and Customs among the Eldar pertaining to Marriage and Other Matters Related Thereto: Together with The Statute of Finwe and Míriel And the Debate of the Valar at its Making

can be found in Morgoth's Ring, volume X of The History of Middle-Earth.

 

[Frandîr]

Thank you!!!