the theme of the flawed 👑king

[Dís]

I am curren6ly reading the thesis "Death of the Corn-King" by Barbara L. Talcroft about certain recurring themes in the work of Rosemary Sutcliff. since she is the only writer I know as thoroug ly as Tolkien and both are influenced by norse mythology I am wondering where similarities and dissimilarities in their work might stem from (apart from very dissimilar biographies). Sutcliff makes use often of the ancient themes of the Sacred King and the Maimed King, both of these also appear in Tolkien´s work. Aragorn has elements of the Sacred King, Denethor of the Maimed King. But there is one theme Tolkien has and Sutcliff hasn´t - the Flawed King, the king - or leader - who makes a fatal mistake, is still followed by his subjects, thus stays a king and may or may not Be redeemed in the end. Feanor is a classic Flawed King. in a way Aragorn is, too, as he represents the line of Numenor with Ar-Pharazon being as flawed as possible and even Isildur falling short of expectations. how comes that this theme is so intensely present with Tolkien who was a learned scholar in Norse and much less with Sutcliff who was much more openly influenced by it, writing history, not fantasy. my best gzess is that it´s the view on man´s sinful nature. Sutcliff definitely was not a christian, Tolkien was. the idea of the failing leader, biblically present in St. Peter, evidently was close to his imaginative work. any other ideas on "cabbages and kings"?

 

[Andreth]

I don't know Sutcliff's books, so maybe my opinion isn't very interesting, but anyway... I have always thought that the ones you point out weren't exactly " themes ": Elves and men are living beings, and in Tolkien's works they live in a marred world... I never thought that even Aman was to be considered free from any marring, even before the coming of Morgoth. So, I think it's quite the normal thing that there are, in fact, flawed kings: Tolkien never feigns any of them to be perfect, not even the coveted Elves or the Valar themselves. This said, I think that Tolkien religion plays a part in it too: after all, Christian religion is all about the corruption of the world and men's possibility to uplift and redeem it... The possibility to hang on to a " hope without hope ", so to speak... Everyone has the possibility to redeem himself. Even Morgoth. I don't know Sutcliff's religious faith, but to me Tolkien's has a role in it.

 

[Dís]

I think so, too, definitely, but I also believe that Tolkien, being a philologist, knew exactly about the recurring "king-themes" in legends, not only norse. Sutcliff, who believed in reincarnation, wrote about history, mostly the british, which is obviously a marred world, still she didn´t pick up that theme and Tolkien did. btw, nobody can redeem himself, but everybody can ask for it. at least in Middle-Earth (which is our world, as Tolkien stated)

 

[Andreth]

Mmmh... I'm not completely convinced... I think in fact that men ( Mortals ) can redeem themselves, and that this is effectively a part of their Gift, as Finrod stated in the Athrabeth. God granted them freedom, and in fact in Catholic religion prayers and so on are ( or should be ) more similar to conversations between father and son rather than between a worshipper and a God. In Catholic religion is expressely stated that God always grants oneself freedom from past sins, if he wants to be redeemed ( as stated in the parable of the prodigal son ), but never interfere in your decisions towards it nor refuse to grant yourself freedom from the past.

 

[Dís]

But it's still God who redeems, personal sins in confession, original sin through the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Since Tolkien was a devoted catholic he kept religion well out of Middle-Earth so as not to invoke the idea of an alternative faith in his "secondary creation". So it would really be worthwhile to look at the the cases of "flawed" leaders and their approach to redemption. I ordered The Children of Hurin yesterday, they should give me some insight.
I'm not sure Tolkien would provide us with a solution every time. What of Saruman, for instance? When he dies his spirit seems to look to the west and maybe, seek some sign of acceptance from there, but a cold wind blows from the west and it seems Saruman did not receive redemption. Did he not ask hard enough?

 

[Andreth]

The Children of Hurin is beautiful, you will surely enjoy it! However, it doesn't seem to me that it gives any further explanation about the topic you're interested in.
speaking of Saruman, he did not exactly " die ", being a Maia; his bodily form dies but, exactly as Sauron, he cannot be unmade by any power of this world. However, the moment you referred left me wondering: really the Valar could refuse a repentant? It doesn't seem logic to me... Maybe It wasn't repentance that Saruman's soul showed, but fear instead.
and, of course, in Catholic religion God redeems oneself from his sins, but only if the sinner is willing to repent; so, to me, it doesn't make a real difference: the power over a Man's destiny is in his own hands.