🧝‍♀️The Valar: Overrated Angels With Trash Management💅

Alright, I owe you all an explanation before I get canonically exiled from Middle-earth 😭💀


So… turns out this whole debate started as a bet with my friends 😂 They dared me ($20 on the line) to go on the Tolkien forum and argue something completely blasphemous like “Bilbo should’ve killed Gollum” and “the Valar are bad managers.”


The catch? I also had to quote EPIC the Musical somewhere in the argument 🎭 Yeah… that part wasn’t me having a mental breakdown, it was part of the dare. I honestly thought it’d just get a few eye rolls, not summon the entire Council of Elrond with dissertations and divine judgment 😭


I wasn’t trolling on purpose after the first post (mostly) — I just got too deep and my inner debater refused to back down 😅


Anyway, lesson learned: never mix EPIC lyrics with Tolkien theology, and definitely never underestimate how passionate Tolkien fans are 🫡 Seriously, props — you all know this legendarium like it’s scripture. I’ll take my $20 and my scarred ego back to the Shire now 🏃‍♂️💨


No hard feelings (I hope). Y’all are wild, and I weirdly respect it 🤝

Alexander Scamilton said:

I also had to quote EPIC the Musical somewhere in the argument 🎭

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I knew something smelt fishier than Poseidon around here! 🔱 😂

Alexander Scamilton said:

turns out this whole debate started as a bet with my friends

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I'm convinced one of these, ah, friends is @Elwing the White. 😉

Ent said:

Nor do most understand the huge parallels between this world in which we live, and the world Tolkien sub-created - and that virtually every single aspect of it is a direct reflection of "what is."

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I always wanted someone to write about this, establishing a parallel between our world and Tolkien's.

Unfortunately, I do not have the writing skills, patience or time to do it myself, I do have ideas.

I like to think as if Tolkien didn't invent the stories, he discovered them, maybe he found the Red Book or some other material and he was writing not as a fantasy author but as a Historian.

In this context, the events of LOTR (as being chronologically some of the latest stories) would have happened a long, long time ago, not the 15,000 years or so Tolkien said in one of his letters, but much, much earlier, giving it time for the world to change and any memories of those days (except for those "materials") were gone.

As it is, Aman would still exist, in a different dimension or plane of reality, but still there would be a connection with our world. The Valar, the Mair and the Elves would still be there, and occasionally, the Valar would send some of them to our world to deal with something, always hidden, never manifesting any supernatural power.

Again, ideas only, I can explain the general concept but I am unable to put a full story in writing because of the above mentioned limitations.

I knew it.

well, I did. . . something like that anyway

did not!
did so!

Glorfindel Goldtress said:

I'm convinced one of these, ah, friends is @Elwing the White. 😉

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NO, no, no. I barely even like know her.

K, fine. I only teamed up with her because I thought she had a brain cell or two to spare. Turns out she was just borrowing mine.

Alexander Scamilton said:

I thought she had a brain cell or two to spare.

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Ah, if this be true, trust me... one must not look for such of the human. Even what few are used, are generally misinformed, misdirected, and misapplied.

Besides, we should always be looking for what we can give, rather than what we can get.

As a friend of @Elwing the White , I can say with certainly that she has an abundance of brain cells (more than me anyway), but very weird views on Feanor's innocence and the Great Balrog Wing Debate.

Make of that what you will.

But she has a Hobbit clock which tells you which meal you should be currently eating.

That alone there is a reason to be friends with her.

(Oh, and she's basically the only person whom I know IRL who can tell me who the seven sons of Feanor are without thinking about it for 5 hours.)

And she likes Hamilton.

I actually have no idea what Hamilton is, but I've heard that smart people like it.

Alexander Scamilton said:

Alright, I owe you all an explanation before I get canonically exiled from Middle-earth 😭💀


So… turns out this whole debate started as a bet with my friends 😂 They dared me ($20 on the line) to go on the Tolkien forum and argue something completely blasphemous like “Bilbo should’ve killed Gollum” and “the Valar are bad managers.”


The catch? I also had to quote EPIC the Musical somewhere in the argument 🎭 Yeah… that part wasn’t me having a mental breakdown, it was part of the dare. I honestly thought it’d just get a few eye rolls, not summon the entire Council of Elrond with dissertations and divine judgment 😭


I wasn’t trolling on purpose after the first post (mostly) — I just got too deep and my inner debater refused to back down 😅


Anyway, lesson learned: never mix EPIC lyrics with Tolkien theology, and definitely never underestimate how passionate Tolkien fans are 🫡 Seriously, props — you all know this legendarium like it’s scripture. I’ll take my $20 and my scarred ego back to the Shire now 🏃‍♂️💨


No hard feelings (I hope). Y’all are wild, and I weirdly respect it 🤝

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You can stay if you like. We don't hold grudges.

Idril Celebrindal said:

As a friend of @Elwing the White , I can say with certainly that she has an abundance of brain cells (more than me anyway), but very weird views on Feanor's innocence and the Great Balrog Wing Debate.

Make of that what you will.

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I don't say it's the case, but not all brain cells are related to intelligence.
Feanor Innocence? no comment.

But she has a Hobbit clock which tells you which meal you should be currently eating.
That alone there is a reason to be friends with her.

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Where did she get that?

(Oh, and she's basically the only person whom I know IRL who can tell me who the seven sons of Feanor are without thinking about it for 5 hours.)

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Maedhros, Maglor, Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, Amrod, Amras, Maedhros used to be Maidhros, don't ask me the other ones.

And she likes Hamilton.

I actually have no idea what Hamilton is, but I've heard that smart people like it.

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I hate Hamilton, It's a musical about one of the founding fathers, never watched it because I don't like musicals but it was so overhyped that I got sick of it.

Idril Celebrindal said:

As a friend of @Elwing the White , I can say with certainly that she has an abundance of brain cells (more than me anyway), but very weird views on Feanor's innocence and the Great Balrog Wing Debate.

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Nah, her view on the Balrog Wing Debate is legit the most mature I've seen so far tbh.

Idril Celebrindal said:

But she has a Hobbit clock which tells you which meal you should be currently eating.

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That's lowkey so cool tho I want one.

Idril Celebrindal said:

And she likes Hamilton.

I actually have no idea what Hamilton is, but I've heard that smart people like it.

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Girl go watch it.

Ricardo said:

I hate Hamilton, It's a musical about one of the founding fathers, never watched it because I don't like musicals but it was so overhyped that I got sick of it.

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You hate Hamilton? Well, not everyone can be in the room where it happens. Some people are just permanently stuck in the lobby.

Idril Celebrindal said:

I can say with certainly that she has an abundance of brain cells (more than me anyway)

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Haha, wait 'til you see my grades. But thank you for the compliment! You're a wonderful friend.
Unlike a certain Alexander.... 😒

Alexander Scamilton said:

NO, no, no. I barely even like know her.

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HE'S MY BROTHER

Elwing the White said:

Haha, wait 'til you see my grades. But thank you for the compliment! You're a wonderful friend.
Unlike a certain Alexander.... 😒

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Who said we were friends?

Elwing the White said:

HE'S MY BROTHER

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Adopted.

Alexander Scamilton said:

The Valar claimed to love the Children — but if we judge them by their actions rather than their hymns, the case for their “benevolent guardianship” starts to crumble like Númenor’s coastline.


Let’s talk about the pattern of their “help”:

• They imprison Morgoth — only to release him out of pity, directly causing the destruction of the Two Trees, the theft of the Silmarils, and the first Kinslaying.
• They summon the Elves to Valinor, fracturing their unity and setting the stage for millennia of grief. Half the tragedy of Middle-earth begins with their meddling in where the Elves should live.
• They intervene in Númenor, not with guidance or wisdom, but with a catastrophic flood that annihilates a civilization wholesale. Yes, Sauron corrupted it — but they vaporized everyone, faithful and fallen alike.
• They refuse to help directly in the Third Age, leaving Men, Elves, and Hobbits to suffer while they sit smugly beyond the sea — claiming “mortal affairs are not their concern.” Oh, now they care about boundaries?

One could argue that every major catastrophe in Arda’s history is either a direct result of the Valar’s decisions or their refusal to act responsibly.


Morgoth broke the world, yes — but it was the Valar who chose to shape the world in a way where one being’s rebellion could corrupt everything. Their interventions swing from overbearing tyranny to callous negligence. They’re not gods — they’re bureaucrats with divine egos.


At what point do we stop calling their actions “divine wisdom” and start calling it what it is: cosmic mismanagement?


Were they truly the guardians of Ilúvatar’s creation, or the reason it needed saving in the first place?

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Valars are kinda like Dalmatians or Montenegrins - "job won't run away, it isn't a rabbit".

In general, you should have posted this thread on April fools day XD

Hisoka Morrow said:

In general, you should have posted this thread on April fools day XD

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$20 is $20

Just as I thought I had found another member to my Valar hating club. 😭