"Thoughts" about TLOTR

[jallan]

Itas posted:

About the form of Sauron - the impression I have is that Sauron can take a physical shape, if he chooses to, but he's not bound to it. There's no way to recognise him, he doesn't have a body that could destroyed with fire and blade.

Tolkien would say the same about Elves, Men, and Dwarves, that is, that their spirits do not die if their bodies are destroyed.

What happens to those spirits is another matter.

From "Ósanwe-kenta" by J.R.R Tolkien, published in Vinya Tengwar 39 (July 1998), Note 5:

Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.
"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.
'The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high asari, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed". (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.)

There are some less complete statements of the same kind in Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), indicating that both Morgoth and Sauron became dependant on their physical forms.

Tolkien indicates that Morgoth eventually may be expected to draw back into himself some of his former dissapated power, "even if Sauron could not". But this will take long ages.

Tolkien also there speculates that rebel Maiar who had incarnated in powerful Orc forms, upon the death of their bodies, might possibly become poltergeists. He also suggests that some houseless spirits may be able to gain a new home by possessing another existing living body, enslaving its rightful spirit.

So, for Tolkien, Sauron was indeed bound to his rebuilt physical form, as he had originally been bound to the body destroyed in the fall of Númenor, and to the subsequent body destroyed when Isildur seized the One Ring.

 

[ltas]

jallan, I'm convinced. That piece of writing was truly interesting. It actually re-formed many of my former conceptions about the nature of Morgoth and Sauron.

Originally posted by jallan
Tolkien also there speculates that possibly rebel Maiar who had incarnated in powerful Orc forms might, upon the death of their bodies become poltergeists. He also suggests that some houseless spirits may be able to gain a new home by possessing another existing living body, enslaving its rightful spirit.

So theoretically, since no-one knows the faith of Saruman after he was murdered by Wormtongue, Saruman could have, after some time, possesed a new body?...

 

[jallan]

Melkor's spirit was banished from Arda.

What happened to Sauron’s (or Saruman’s) we are not told.

Tolkien's comments on houseless spirits refer entirely to Elves whose spirits have refused the summons of Mandos. But then continues:

To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own’s will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.
<snip>
Or the Houseless may please for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Suaron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.

So if the spirits of Elves might possess the bodies of others, how much more the spirit of Sauron who was reputedly knowledgeable and expert in such lore?

As far as I tell this thought did not occur to Tolkien, who imagines Sauron’s spirt to be mostly helpless until the End.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by jallan
What happened to Sauron’s (or Saruman’s) we are not told.

Aren't we told what happens to Sauron?

From The Valaquenta:

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

 

[ltas]

''... walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.''
I don't know... This could be interpreted in the way that Sauron followed Morgoth's example in his attempts to become the Lord of the ME, but it doesn't necessarily explain Sauron's final faith (in my opinion).

''Melkor's spirit was banished from Arda.

What happened to Sauron’s (or Saruman’s) we are not told.''

In my view the finale of the ROTK leaves an impression that Sauron's spirit was destroyed too? That the Ring was such a vital part of his existence, he had put a part of his soul in it, that when it was destroyed it took its master with it?

Hmm.

 

[Ithrynluin]

I don't see why the quote should not be taken literally. Sauron did great sins against the Children (the greatest being the Downfall of Numenor I believe), and he would be cast into the Void because of them.
Sauron's fall was so deep that his rise could not be foretold ever again (Gandalf says something to that effect). I myself would banish Sauron to the Void.

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
I don't see why the quote should not be taken literally. Sauron did great sins against the Children (the greatest being the Downfall of Numenor I believe), and he would be cast into the Void because of them.
Sauron's fall was so deep that his rise could not be foretold ever again (Gandalf says something to that effect). I myself would banish Sauron to the Void.

Could Morgoth have been thrown to the void, or out of Arda, because it was thought that he could eventually rebuild his spirit?

If this was the primary reason for throwing him out, it might be that there was no reason to throw Sauron out. He is not expected to build himself up again.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Nóm
Could Morgoth have been thrown to the void, or out of Arda, because it was thought that he could eventually rebuild his spirit?

If this was the primary reason for throwing him out, it might be that there was no reason to throw Sauron out. He is not expected to build himself up again.

I agree. But I still would not allow him to have the freedom of roaming the lands freely and enjoying this freedom (even though without a bodily form). I would ban him to the utter blackness and timelessness of the Void.

 

[ltas]

Interesting idea, Nym.

Couldn't it be that the main difference between Morgoth's and Sauron's final destiny was the way they were defeated? I mean that the empire of Morgoth was conquered under the guidance of the Valar and he was to judged to ''imprisonment'', whereas Sauron was destroyed (I mean literally destroyed) by almost a mere lucky chance. The difference between Morgoth and Sauron would then be that Morgoth, though banished, is still present somewhere, but Sauron has ceased to exist, both physically and spiritually.

 

[jallan]

But it is part of Tolkien's philosphical underpining that spirits, once created, cannot be destroyed.

Tolkien does say in a note given by Christopher Tolkien as note 11 in Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), “Myths Transformed” VII, Notes on the motives in the Silmarillion, an addendum to the discussion of disembodied spirits regaining power:

If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fëa can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a ‘wicked’ spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.

Tolkien is himself only speculating here, and probably would not have claimed to know the final fates of the spirits of Sauron or Saruman.

 

[Confusticated]

The elves believe that a spirit can grow and rebuild it's self and this is said of Morgoth in HoMe X, Notes on Motives in The Silmarillion:

The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of it's formerly dissipated power. It would do this because of it's relative greatness. It did not repent, or turn finallt awat from it's obsession, but retained still relics of wisdom, so that it could still seek to heal itself, distract itself by other thoughts and desires amd devices - but all simply to recover enough strength to return to the attack on the Valar, and to its old obsession. As it grew again in would become, as it were, a sark shadow, brooding on te confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.

So there seems to be 2 reasons that Morgoth can rebuild - relative greatness, and a wisdom to heal himself.

From jallan's quote from the same essay:

But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself.

That in combination with Morgoth's spirit being greater, seems to me the major reason that Sauron can not rebuild but Morgoth can.

I am not clear about the idea that Morgoth has retained a wisdom which would allow him to turn his thoughts to other things in order that he can rebuild. What wisdom does he have that Sauron does not? Surely Morgoth wants things that are beyond his means. Why suppose that Sauron would dwell on things beyond his means but Morgoth wouldn't?
Any ideas?

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Wasn't there like the 7 prophecies of Mandos or something? one of them was that Morgoth would escape the void and all and then the final battle of Illuvatar or something like that before the final judgement. I heard something like that. Anyways, anyone have info on the seven prophs. of Mandos or whatever it was? thanks!

 

[Thorondor_]

Seven? I know of only two, the doom of the noldor and the second one about Turin and Melkor (which doesn't appear in the Sil, only briefly in UT and then in HoME 11, Commentary on the second section of the Annals of Aman.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Yeah I could have sworn I read some where there were 7, but then Tolkien, as the translator of the stories, said something like, "to tell of all of these prophesies would take many books" or something like that, but Im pretty sure they're listed somewhere, i just cant remember where