Thousands of ⛏️Dwarves vs one Balrog ?

Ithrynluin · Feb 16, 2004

Take heed of the how those passages are worded:

And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the noldor

The Noldor were extremely weakened by that point, and Glaurung still had his brood.

The one Balrog dealt with a thriving colony that was Moria. The total number of Balrogs is 7 at most.

It is my belief that they are more unique and more powerful beings than the dragons.

Bombadillo · Feb 17, 2004

ithrynluin said:
The one Balrog dealt with a thriving colony that was Moria. The total number of Balrogs is 7 at most.
It is my belief that they are more unique and more powerful beings than the dragons.

you must remember this:

But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that alliancedown into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadfull among these spirits where the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in ME were called the balrogs, demons of terror.

these fire demons were probably once maiar of aule, and if i remember correctly most of the maiar drawn to melkor were of aule.
I can't get rid of the idea that there were a lot of balrogs. Can you prove me otherwise? I like to learn

Ithrynluin · Feb 17, 2004

In the Book of Lost Tales mythology there were indeed many Balrogs around, but they weren't considered Maiar at that point. Only later on were they 'converted' into Maiar and Tolkien stated there were 7 Balrogs max. Don't have the time to give you a quote, so you'll have to take my word on it.

these fire demons were probably once maiar of aule, and if i remember correctly most of the maiar drawn to melkor were of aule.

I see no reason to assume that most of 'Melkor's Maiar' were originally of the people of Aulë.

meneldor · Feb 19, 2004

The balrogs were destroyed, save some few that HID themselves in cavernsat the roots of the earth. MOrgoth then loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault out of the pits of Angband, the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet THAT THE HOST OF THE VALAR WAS DRIVEN BACK, FOR THE COMING OF THE DRAGONS WAS WITH GREAT THUNDER, LIGHTNING, AND A TEMPEST OF FIRE. But here comes Earendil, Thorondor and the rest of the greatest eagles that lived and already with the host of the Valar which fought through the day and as Tolkien describes a doubtful night. I do know that Eonwe, the greatest warrior aside Tulkas and Orome the great fought along side also. Tolkien clearly writes of the magnitude of the battle with the dragons and states that the balrogs were destroyed and some fled before the coming of the greatest host ever assembled. This was the greatest army ever assembled, yet they fought for quite awhile a undecided battle untill the end when they were victorious, with the final help coming from the great eagles and Earendil in his cool boat. Sounds pretty evident on who the tougher opponent was.

Ithrynluin · Feb 22, 2004

meneldor said:
The balrogs were destroyed, save some few that HID themselves in cavernsat the roots of the earth. MOrgoth then loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault out of the pits of Angband, the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet THAT THE HOST OF THE VALAR WAS DRIVEN BACK, FOR THE COMING OF THE DRAGONS WAS WITH GREAT THUNDER, LIGHTNING, AND A TEMPEST OF FIRE. But here comes Earendil, Thorondor and the rest of the greatest eagles that lived and already with the host of the Valar which fought through the day and as Tolkien describes a doubtful night. I do know that Eonwe, the greatest warrior aside Tulkas and Orome the great fought along side also. Tolkien clearly writes of the magnitude of the battle with the dragons and states that the balrogs were destroyed and some fled before the coming of the greatest host ever assembled. This was the greatest army ever assembled, yet they fought for quite awhile a undecided battle untill the end when they were victorious, with the final help coming from the great eagles and Earendil in his cool boat. Sounds pretty evident on who the tougher opponent was.

Exactly. In such enormous numbers (compared to the puny 7 Balrogs altogether) the dragons were a mightier brood. One on one, a dragon could hardly oust a Balrog IMHO.

Khôr’nagan · Feb 22, 2004

I agree. Though Dragons were indeed very mighty, mightier still were the Balrogs, in my opinion. In a one-on-one fight, how could a Dragon possibly hope to win against a Balrog? And think also how everyone who ever killed a Balrog died in so doing, while everyone that killed a Dragon survived doing so. And think now, a Man killed the Dragon and lived in three occasions, and yet Gandalf, a Maia, died killing a Balrog, as did Ecthelion and Glorfindel.

Might not one begin to think that Balrogs were the greater opponent in light of these facts? I know I would.

Bucky · Feb 23, 2004

Another silly dragon vs. balrog debate........

What's this one?

Number 68 or 69?

they are composed of nothing but fire and shadow??

'In the center was a form, of man shape, but greater'

There is a solid form in there, surrounded by 'shadow & flame'.
As previously stated, how would a weightless 'spirit' form jumping on the bridge at Kghazad-Dum cause it to crack completely & fall?

Also, I think you need to be VERY careful about presenting the events from the BOLT about Ecthelien & Glorfindel fighting the balrogs as 'cannonical' facts about balrogs as that story goes so far back & Toklkien changed so much of the history of Middle-Earth up tp the 2nd Age from 1917 to his death.....

To just take that story, unpublished by it's author & present it as "Balrogs can be killed this way or that way" is just not 'etched in stone' truth.

meneldor · Feb 23, 2004

But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the the Orcs, Morgoth released his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves and wolfriders, there came Balrogs and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength of the great worm was now great indeed, and ELVES AND MEN WITHERED BEFORE HIM, (NOTICE THE PLURAL), AND HE CAME BETWEEN THE HOST OF FINGON AND MAEDHROS AND SWEPT THEM APART. Later on it states " Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the dwarves of Belegost, and thus they won renown. For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than Elves or men.. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have WITHERED ALL THAT WAS LEFT OF THE NOLDOR. Page 212 of TurinTurambar, then the warriors of Nargothrond went forth, and tall and terrible on that day looked Turin, and the host was upheld,as he rode on the right hand of Orodreth. But greater far was the host of Morgoth than any scouts had told, and NONE BUT TURIN DEFENDED BY HIS DWARF-MASK COULD WITHSTAND THE APPROACH OF GLAURUNG. OK, so an elf could fight one on one with balrog, but fled before Glaurung.

Bucky · Feb 23, 2004

But, the point of the discussion is why thousands of dwarves couldn't or didn't stand up against one balrog, not another 'Would A Balrog Or a Dragon Win A Fight' debate......
That debate is as pointless as debating whether a machine gun or a bazooka is better in combat.......

Elves fighting dragons, that's obviously in the 'Seen' world & strictly a strength thing.

Balrogs are Maiar, existing like High Elves in both the 'Seen' & 'Unseen' at the same time & therefore High Elves have a great advantage that sheer numbers alone won't help.

Comparing the strengths & abilities of a powerhouse monster like a dragon & a spirtual dynamo like a balrog is like apples & oranges.

meneldor · Feb 24, 2004

yeah Bucky, maybe we should get back to the discussion at hand. I feel the arguement of balrog v.s dragon could be argued till the end of the internet with no clear definitive answer to rest on. maybe certain dragons gave certain people more problems as the same with balrogs. enuff said.

Lantarion · Feb 24, 2004

meneldor said:
yeah Bucky, maybe we should get back to the discussion at hand. I feel the arguement of balrog v.s dragon could be argued till the end of the internet with no clear definitive answer to rest on.

Hah, well there is a thread which tackles the issue here..
But good idea, let's stay on topic.

Aglarband · Apr 3, 2004

ithrynluin said:
Among the Children of Ilúvatar, I think there were only a handful of those who had the heart to do what Glorfindel and Ecthelion did.

Dwarves are not the Children of Ilúvatar. But I do beleive that Dwarves have a risitance to fire ,since they are children of the earth, as they killed a large amount of Dragons in the battles against Morgoth. I think that the lose of Durin was too much for the dwarves and the rumour of Durin's Bane was enough to scare even their stout hearts.

Ithrynluin · Apr 4, 2004

Dwarves are the adopted children of Eru.

Lantarion · Apr 4, 2004

Heh didn't notice this bit before :

Bucky said:
'In the center was a form, of man shape, but greater'

There is a solid form in there, surrounded by 'shadow & flame'.

The association you make is between the words 'form' and 'shape'; neither has anything to do with solidity. Carbon dioxide has a form, it doesn't make it solid!

Thousands of ⛏️Dwarves vs one Balrog ?

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