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Tom Bombadil - Who or what?

Ack! I know that Tom Bombadil doesn't have to be a race. LOTR isn't real. None of the characters need to be classified as anything. But isn't this thread asking what we think he is? I thought so. Silly me. If we are trying to say what we think he is, we gots to classify him somehow. If you read the thread, you'll notice that lots of people showed up and tossed evidence for why he could be certain things. oh well. Maybe not. Anyways, no, I don't like to think that Tom Bombadil could be Aule. Aule's too cool.
 
YayGollum - You contradicted yourself :confused:

Yes, but you went beyond suggesting what he might be by asserting that he "has to be a race."

I meant "Tom does not have to be classifiable as any race, because he is a fictitious character" within the scope of TLotR.

BlackCaptain - What Hargrove says about the claim is a fact: the term "daughter" doesn't necessarily mean that she had parents; physically, the Valar are neither male nor female.
 
When did I contradict myself? oh well. I don't see was going beyond suggesting when I said that he has to be a race. This thread is about saying what you think he is. How can you say what you think he is without giving him a race? The book describes him well enough. This guy's just wondering what he's supposed to be. Sure, you could run around saying that you shouldn't worry about it because LOTR isn't real and what he is shouldn't matter, but that's not even trying to answer the question. oh well.
 
:rolleyes:

Again, I intended my comment within the scope of TLotR.

He doesn't need to be classified in order to answer the question.
 
Okay, nevermind about answering my question, then. oh well. Anyways, how else can you answer the question? You said that you liked the idea of him being Aule. Sounds like you think he's a Valar. You classified him. Too late.
 
I put that up as a suggestion; I didn't classify him as having to be of a race. He is most certainly an enigma: and therein lies the answer to your question.
 
I don't know how many of you have read "Lost Tales," but in the chapter "The Coming of the Valar" (page65 in my copy) it talks about the coming of Aule and Yavanna.

"About them fared a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else they are not called, for their number is very great: yet must not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world, and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them."

I just came across this, and it seems to be the closest description of Tom Bombadil's character in Tolkien's writings. A lot of discussion has gone into whether Bombadil and Goldberry could be Aule and Yavanna, could it be that they are part of the host of Aule and Yavanna instead?
 
I especially think the "older than its oldest" part is intriguing, since it echoes Bombadil and Gandalf from Fellowship. I agree that none of this can be proven, but this seems to be the best thing I have found, and until someone changes my mind I think I'll go with this. And when I started this thread I had not come across this description, and I was hoping there was an answer set in stone, I didnt realize I would be opening such a can of worms (guess I should have read soem of the other threads before I asked).
 
These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else they are not called, for their number is very great:

I like the idea of Tom and Goldberry being one of these.
 
Sure, why not? But that's just creepy to think that Aule could be Tom Bombadil. oh well. Wish I had some of those other crazy bookses you people are talking about.
 
You don't? Water helps make things grow. You didn't know that? Coming to Middle Earth in the form of some crazy water lady would be fun for her, I would think. oh well. I don't like the idea anyways.
 
Keep in mind that the forms that the Ainur took were as clothes are to us. So if you are speculating that Tom and Goldberry could be Valar, than they could just as well be any of the Valar.
Tom's character/abilities most resemble Yavanna, Oromë or Tulkas. Goldberry is most like Uinen IMHO.

You don't? Water helps make things grow. You didn't know that? Coming to Middle Earth in the form of some crazy water lady would be fun for her, I would think. oh well. I don't like the idea anyways.

But Yay, that connection is a little bit obscure. We could just as well liken Goldberry to Varda then, since "light makes things grow" as well.;)
 
Oh, I thought that Varda was mostly into stars. oh well. I'd go for that crazy lady that's in charge of the sun if you're talking about light helping plants. :D Anyways, why do you think the Valar have to wear clothes that remind people of them? I never saw a rule that said that.
 
From Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, letter 144:
And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).
Aulë who teaches the Elves smithcraft and has little concern with living things, unlike Yavanna, is not much like Tom Bombadil.

Now if Tom appeared as a smith, or was even shown to have an anvil somwhere around his place ....

But since Tolkien apparently preferred not to classify Tom, not to fit him in precisely into his legendarium, any theory by anyone else is hard to take seriously.

Only Yavanna and Oromë, not Aulë, are said to be unwilling to utterly forsake Middle-earth, while Tom claims to have dwelt there since before the coming of Melkor, before the first raindrop, much less the first tree.

Neither Yavanna or Oromë dwelt continually in Middle-earth. At the time when Tolkien was writing The Lord of the Rings Oromë was still held to be a son of Yavanna born before the coming into Eä, but his father was not Aulë.

As to Tom being a Maia (which would include all the leprawns etc. mentioned by Elwe Singollo, it is an argument from silence to assume that all spirits found with Eä were Ainur from without. There may also have been spirits created alone with Eä, always part of it.

He might be the first spirit of some kind or other to permanent take incarnate form within Arda, which would explain why is called “Oldest”.

Tolkien may have felt that Tom being an enigma was more effective aesthetically than unncessarily inventing a particular place and history for him (unless suddenly inspiration struck him).

As far as we know, it didn’t.

Note that River-woman, Goldberry’t mother, appears faintly as a character in the poem “The Adventures of Tom Bombadil”.

Who would River-woman be, if one wants to make Goldberry one of the Valar?
 
Sounds like you're for the Maiar idea. oh well. Maybe so. I don't know. It's cool to see the different ideas. I wonder if the person that asked the question is still paying attention. :rolleyes: Anyways, who said that Goldberry was a Valar? oh well.
 
Originally posted by lhutton
ithrynluin: You do not consider Aulë :confused:

Like jallan said already, Aulë is nothing like Tom. Aulë's delight is in forging, the crafting of weapons and gems. He is not very in sync with nature, and neither are his creations, the Dwarves.
Tom, on the other hand, cares for the living things and has control over them (he deals with Old Man Willow, and even the Barrow-downs wight easily). He shows absolutely no interest in the Ring, which is a product of supreme craftsmanship. No, Tom is definitely not Aulë.

Originally posted by YayGollum
Oh, I thought that Varda was mostly into stars. oh well. I'd go for that crazy lady that's in charge of the sun if you're talking about light helping plants. :D Anyways, why do you think the Valar have to wear clothes that remind people of them? I never saw a rule that said that.

For Goldberry to be Arien, the latter would have to abandon "wielding" the sun which is sort of her job.
What I meant with the Valar's raiment being as clothes are to us,
is basically that they can take upon themselves any form they like. Any of the Valar, male or female, could take the form of Bombadil if they wished to do so. Mostly they took up the forms of things that resemble their characters the most, e.g. Yavanna in the form of a great tree.
 
Even though I don't think that Tom Bombadil is Aule, the reasons you tossed around for why he couldn't be don't make much sense. Aule isn't just into forging and gems and Dwarf-type things. He was the guy that made the earth. That doesn't mean just mountains. Maybe he had all kinds of fun with designing the land that the Old Forest sits on. :rolleyes: Anyways, I'm pretty sure that any Valar could mess with Old Man Willow. just because they have special interests and talents doesn't mean that they all can't have the same powers over lesser type things.

Anyways, yes, I know that that sun lady most likely did not abandon her post. I was just pointing out who makes plants grow. :rolleyes: Also, yes, I knew what you meant by the Valar type of clothes. Ack! I just don't see any rule that says Valar can only put on clothes that make them look the way we think they should. You just said that any of them could have been Tom Bombadil. No big deal.
 

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