Turin kills Melkor 1v1? What do you think?

[Turin_Turambar]

There has been a lot of discussion on this question in other threads. I felt the need to open the subject. I think after Tulkas was defeated, Turin duels with Melkor 1 to 1 and kills Melkor in this way. What do you think? Alone when Turin killed Melkor? Or does he kill with help? I think there is even a picture of my thought.

 

[Great King of Men]

Interesting thought! I’ll have to delve a bit deeper in the character Turin before i can cast a vote in a most honest way. At first im thinking, no he can’t, with help it might be likely.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Interesting thought! I’ll have to delve a bit deeper in the character Turin before i can cast a vote in a most honest way. At first im thinking, no he can’t, with help it might be likely.

If fingolfin alone can injure melkor 7 times, why can't turin kill melkor without help? According to the book, Turin was fighting much better than the best-fighting high-elves of his time (like, ecthelion glorfindel turgon maglor maedhros). Contrary to most people belief, there was not much difference in strength between elves and mens. Yes, elves are stronger. But the difference in strength between with mens is not much.

 

[Great King of Men]

If fingolfin alone can injure melkor 7 times, why can't turin kill melkor without help? According to the book, Turin was fighting much better than the best-fighting high-elves of his time (like, ecthelion glorfindel turgon maglor maedhros). Contrary to most people belief, there was not much difference in strength between elves and mens. Yes, elves are stronger. But the difference in strength between with mens is not much.

That's why I said I'll have to delve deeper in to the character Turin. I'm just expressing my thoughts, like you ask us to do with your poll, no harm meant.

If fingolfin alone can injure melkor 7 times, why can't turin kill melkor without help? According to the book, Turin was fighting much better than the best-fighting high-elves of his time (like, ecthelion glorfindel turgon maglor maedhros). Contrary to most people belief, there was not much difference in strength between elves and mens. Yes, elves are stronger. But the difference in strength between with mens is not much.

But the fact that Fingolfin is able to injure him, would indeed mean that Turin stands a big chance yes, agreed. I'm just wondering, how much is there to "kill" for Turin, seeing as Melkor is an Ainur. I'm never quite sure what a man is capable of doing to a "godlike" being like Melkor.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

But the fact that Fingolfin is able to injure him, would indeed mean that Turin stands a big chance yes, agreed. I'm just wondering, how much is there to "kill" for Turin, seeing as Melkor is an Ainur. I'm never quite sure what a man is capable of doing to a "godlike" being like Melkor.

I think Turin is in a much stronger state brought back from the dead than before in the battle of Dagor Dagorath. So much stronger and superior to a normal middle-earth man. He was already the greatest warrior of all mortals in the first age. His father, Hurin, was the strongest warrior of mortals. Although Melkor is a godlike being, I think Turin can defeat Melkor.

 

[earthfriend]

I think Turin was the mightiest man to feature in Middle Earth mythology. His whole life was trauma, inflicted by Melkor (not Morgoth?). He had probably the hardest upbringing, Plus, entire life of war and strife, developed his fighting prowess beyond that of any other warrior. He was driven by the visceral need for revenge on Morgoth, to make him pay for his sins against his family. So,, physically the strongest ever, the most battle hardened, most skilled in hand to hand combat, and with astral levels of motivation.
From the point of view of the tales themselves, I think there was a Wagnerian, or Norse element in the mythology, that there had to be a final reckoning,, a final battle to bring closure.
Ragnarok, anyone? Tolkein was highly influenced by Norse mythology, and was it not in the back of his mind there would be the final battle, I believe it;s referred to in Lost Tales or Unfinished tales, when people speculate about the end of days, and the final apocalypse, and the battle between Morgoth and Turin is decided

P.S. I think Turin was the type of guy, if you saw him walking down the street, people would cross over to avoid him

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I think Turin was the mightiest man to feature in Middle Earth mythology. His whole life was trauma, inflicted by Melkor (not Morgoth?). He had probably the hardest upbringing, Plus, entire life of war and strife, developed his fighting prowess beyond that of any other warrior. He was driven by the visceral need for revenge on Morgoth, to make him pay for his sins against his family. So,, physically the strongest ever, the most battle hardened, most skilled in hand to hand combat, and with astral levels of motivation.
From the point of view of the tales themselves, I think there was a Wagnerian, or Norse element in the mythology, that there had to be a final reckoning,, a final battle to bring closure.
Ragnarok, anyone? Tolkein was highly influenced by Norse mythology, and was it not in the back of his mind there would be the final battle, I believe it;s referred to in Lost Tales or Unfinished tales, when people speculate about the end of days, and the final apocalypse, and the battle between Morgoth and Turin is decided

P.S. I think Turin was the type of guy, if you saw him walking down the street, people would cross over to avoid him

my native language is not english but the term "defeat" is used for turin on the internet against melkor. defeat means to beat in english. so actually tolkien clearly implies that this duel is one on one. but most people don't like turin so they don't accept that turin can beat melkor. The reason why he was not liked may be that he has a slightly angry character. However, his only concern was to get rid of his curse.

 

[Goldilocks Gamgee]

but most people don't like turin

I've got to say... it's pretty hard to see him as a positive character. I know, he did not choose to marry his sister, and most of what happened was not his fault. But, like, did he really have to chase Saeros through the forest, stripping him down until he was naked "clad only in his own hair"? I understand that Saeros insulted his mother, but is that not a bit too much of a reaction? Is asking people to a duel possible?

In a way, Turin brought his own doom upon him. I have nothing against Turambar as a character, but he is not the most pleasant person.

 

[Melkor]

I've got to say... it's pretty hard to see him as a positive character. I know, he did not choose to marry his sister, and most of what happened was not his fault. But, like, did he really have to chase Saeros through the forest, stripping him down until he was naked "clad only in his own hair"? I understand that Saeros insulted his mother, but is that not a bit too much of a reaction? Is asking people to a duel possible?

In a way, Turin brought his own doom upon him. I have nothing against Turambar as a character, but he is not the most pleasant person.

Saeros tried to killed Túrin, stab him in his back. I think, that chasing him through forest while he was naked was mild punishment. Túrin wasn't try to kill Saeros, so he is better than Saeros ever was. Saeros made his own bed.

I never saw Túrin in negative way. He always act with best intentions, he have good heart. He is impulsive, so what? No one is perfect.

 

[earthfriend]

In an earlier post I described him as a walking mass of PTSD, any psychiatrist would have had a field day with him

 

[Elthir]

my native language is not english but the term "defeat" is used for turin on the internet against melkor. defeat means to beat in english. so actually tolkien clearly implies that this duel is one on one.

I think it's rather far from clear what happens here (and just to add, Tolkien himself does not use the word defeat -- not that I can find so far -- at least in the specific descriptions that actually deal with
the myth itself).

What is clear from the actual text -- and not merely implied but stated -- is that Tulkas strives with Melkor, and on his right shall stand Eonwe, and on his left Túrin, and that the Black Sword of Túrin
shall deal Melkor his death.

In my opinion a number of scenarios are possible here, including one in which Túrin, love him or hate him, is merely allowed to deal Melkor his death blow, without even fighting.

I'm not saying that that's what happened, rather I'm saying the description of this Mannish Myth (if indeed Tolkien did not take Túrin's role out of it, and replace Turambar's final act with what is found in Andreth's prophecy) is quite open to interpretation.

🐾

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I think it's rather far from clear what happens here (and just to add, Tolkien himself does not use the word defeat -- not that I can find so far -- at least in the specific descriptions that actually deal with
the myth itself).

What is clear from the actual text -- and not merely implied but stated -- is that Tulkas strives with Melkor, and on his right shall stand Eonwe, and on his left Túrin, and that the Black Sword of Túrin
shall deal Melkor his death.

In my opinion a number of scenarios are possible here, including one in which Túrin, love him or hate him, is merely allowed to deal Melkor his death blow, without even fighting.

I'm not saying that that's what happened, rather I'm saying the description of this Mannish Myth (if indeed Tolkien did not take Túrin's role out of it, and replace Turambar's final act with what is found in Andreth's prophecy) is quite open to interpretation.

🐾

I have thought about your message once again. In the pictures on the Internet that tell the prophecy of Dagor Dagorath, Turin and Morgoth are always drawn one-on-one. Of course, that doesn't prove Turin killed in a one-on-one duel. But I think there is some truth in the pictures. Because if Tulkas is fighting Morgoth, why is Turin killing Morgoth instead Tulkas? And why does Tulkas need Turin's help to slay Morgoth? I think it's very contradictory.

 

[Radaghast]

I've got to say... it's pretty hard to see him as a positive character. I know, he did not choose to marry his sister, and most of what happened was not his fault. But, like, did he really have to chase Saeros through the forest, stripping him down until he was naked "clad only in his own hair"? I understand that Saeros insulted his mother, but is that not a bit too much of a reaction? Is asking people to a duel possible?

In a way, Turin brought his own doom upon him. I have nothing against Turambar as a character, but he is not the most pleasant person.

Whether or not his treatment of Saeros was just, his slaying of Brandir was not, even if Brandir was lying. Túrin is no hero and does not deserve the honor of killing or helping to kill Morgoth. That honor should go to his father Húrin.

 

[Elthir]

Because if Tulkas is fighting Morgoth, why is Turin killing Morgoth instead Tulkas?

The answer for me (if indeed I were to take this one option, that is, the option of Túrin being allowed
to deliver the death blow -- which I'm only doing here to answer a question) is found in part of the mannish myth itself: allowing Túrin to do it leads to: " . . . and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."

And why does Tulkas need Turin's help to slay Morgoth? I think it's very contradictory.

But nothing says Tulkas needed Túrin's help in the first place.

Anyway, JRRT also wrote "and Beren Camlost" in the margin near this section, possibly suggesting that Beren was to be part of this myth in some way.

🐾

 

[ZehnWaters]

TBH I always preferred the Dagor Dagorath being the ending but that's me.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

TBH I always preferred the Dagor Dagorath being the ending but that's me.

I uphold this one. It is an exciting ending, to say the least.

 

[Elthir]

Dagor Dagorath. Yawn. I'd rather Quenta Silmarillion end with badgers capturing Bombadil, dragging him below the cool earth . . .

. . . with Bombadil, escaping with a song back up into the world, suddenly finding out that the
"lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again" -- and he sees a vision of Treebeard and
Galadriel meeting in the new, willow-meads of Tasarinan . . .

. . . surrounded by the badgers that had tricked him [Tom].

Or maybe something with Finrod.

Or something.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Dagor Dagorath. Yawn. I'd rather Quenta Silmarillion end with badgers capturing Bombadil, dragging him below the cool earth . . .

. . . with Bombadil, escaping with a song back up into the world, suddenly finding out that the
"lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again" -- and he sees a vision of Treebeard and
Galadriel meeting in the new, willow-meads of Tasarinan . . .

. . . surrounded by the badgers that had tricked him [Tom].

Or maybe something with Finrod.

Or something.

To be fair, those things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Elthir]

To be fair, those things aren't mutually exclusive.

I can still prefer one over the other though. Badgers in. Dagor Dagorath out

Or another approach to "the end" and Arda Healed: Eru himself enters Arda, plus Finrod's vision --
see The Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth (Morgoth's Ring), for details.