Uruk-Hai and Free Will

[Grond]

Well, first off, Tolkien couldn't make up his mind as to where Orcs had come from, but he did decide definitely that they hadn't been Elves. He tried coming up with ways they could be Men, even though supposedly Men only awakened with the coming of the sun and there were Orcs at the Battle Under the Stars. I think this was the same time he was trying to change the story about the Two Trees to fit with modern astronomy, so then there must have been a sun and moon from the beginning. He also posed the theory that they might have been bred from beasts, because they had trouble understanding even their own language and this might be seen as only mimicry, like a parrot imitating the human voice. Also, the wording in the Silmarillion always included phrases implying that it was later said, for example by "the wise or Eressea" that captured Elves were probably the stock from which Morgoth bred Orcs, it was never stated as an irrefutable fact, at least as far as I recall. I think I've got all these facts straight, but here's a thread where they had a big honking debate about it in case I haven't: http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?t=6548&page=1&pp=15

Whoo, now that I've got that all out in the open, I guess it does seem like what with the societies portrayed in the Hobbit, probably Orcs couldn't have been entirely beast, though some kind of cross-breed between men and beasts would be possible, which I think Tolkien mentioned. The question he kept coming back to was whether Eru would actually have provided a soul for such creatures, which I think is why he came up with the beast idea. Of course if we can say definitively that they didn't have an immortal soul like humans then it seems plausible that they did indeed depend entirely on whoever commanded them. If, however, they were corrupted men then it seems that something of free will must have remained, and they could have chosen to renounce their evil ways, though it would have to be difficult anyway.

I'd like to comment however, that somewhere either in the Sil or HoMe there was something about how some of the Maiar corrupted to evil service sometimes took the form of Orcs, but larger, and so there were legends of how these great chieftains would command in battle, perhaps being slain, yet still reappear to fight again later. This might be a good explaination of Goblin Kings, etc., provide a will easily strong enough to command and organize them whatever their origin, indepent of Sauron or in collaboration with him.

I've been on both sides of this argument. Tolkien theorizes about different origins of Orcs... especially in HoME X but... I'm not sure that what's written there can UNDO what is laid down in the Silmarillion. Regardless of their origin, they are inextricably entwined with the evil will of their creator/perverter. That entity would be my boss, Melkor/Morgoth. In his absence... the leadership role would definately be delegated to his chief Lieutenant... Sauron. If Sauron was indisposed (his out of body experience and all) his chief Lieutenant (in this case Captain) would take command (can we say Witch-king or Lord of the Ringwraiths?).

There is little doubt that with the reoccupation of Dol Goldur in 1100 that they began working (aka putting matters in order) with the Orcs of the Misty Mountains as well as those that were in Moria (can we say AZOG!!??).

As most of you know, I haven't done any real Tolkien research in over a year but... maybe in this case I will. I do remember clearly that Tolkien's "vision" of the Orc (whether common orc or giant Uruk) was one of an inherent corrurpted and unredeemable creature. But... then again, I seem to remember a HoME discussion where he addresses this very issue.

I'll get back to you on this one.

Cheers,

grond (the birthday boy!)

 

[HLGStrider]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GROND!

HGR, I'm not exactly able to comment upon the HoME, so I'm basing my Orc theory totally on the Sil. I've never been able to get a good copy of the HoMe. . .or any copy for that matter.

 

[Hobbit-GalRosie]

Yeah, that's why I thought I'd post that stuff, to clarify things and so people would know some of what was said there. It's quite a mouthful, though, and probably not worth the trouble. Who else do I expect to be obsessed enough to read all that?

But I do think that the thing about Maiar Orc chieftains would explain how there could be independant Orc-societies whether or not they had free will. I can't remember where that's from though, it might actually have been UT also, I don't own any books other than the Sil, so this is based on what I remember from when I got them from the library. I like best the idea that they were mindless beasts myself, because I don't like to think any reasoning people could be so wholly corrupted; if not irredeemable, since God surely could not allow that, then at least closely approaching it. But that's only what I like, not what I think is most probable.