The Olog-hai
Originally posted by aragil
Well, for a while on this thread that was the case. I just sat here stating that 'hai' was probably 'men', so Olog-hai were troll men. What was my evidence? Well, when Sauron concentrates on them, the Olog-hai can endure the sun. This is a most peculiar distinction among trolls, who generally seem to 'die' in quick fashion when confronted with sunlight. It seems to me that if Sauron concentrates on the other breeds of trolls, they will not be able to endure the sun.
I would agree with this. And with that, I will note that the hill-trolls of
Gorgoroth appear in daylight at the
Morannon. If, as we agree, other trolls would not be able to endure the sun even with the will of Sauron behind them, then these
creatures must be the Olog-hai. At the Morannon, of course, the reek of Orodruin partially obscures the sun ¨C but not completely. We know of course that the first rays of dawn are enough to kill non-Olog-hai trolls.
In this connection, it might be pertinent to note that in the second chapter of LotR
Tolkien says:
"Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful
weapons."
Appendix F introduces the Olog-hai thus:
¡±But at the end of
the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern
Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of
Mordor. ¡°
and goes on to describe them thus:
¡°Trolls they were, but filled with the
evil will of their master: a fell
race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. ¡°
So we have two points of identification between
the trolls of ¡°The Shadow of the Past¡± and the Olog-hai; the time of their appearance, and their cunning.
There is also the interesting point that these new trolls were ¡°armed with dreadful weapons.¡± The hill-trolls of Gorgoroth appear to be the only trolls in Tolkien¡¯s work who are described as carrying weapons; the cave troll appears to be unarmed, as are the trolls of ¡°The
Hobbit.¡± But the hill-trolls at the Morannon ¡°bore round bucklers huge and black and wielded heavy hammers in their knotted hands.¡± It seems quite clear, therefore, that they are the new, ¡°improved¡± kind of troll. Nothing about these trolls suggests that they have Man-blood.
Originally posted by aragil
Because of this it seems to me that the Olog-hai have non-trollish blood in them, specifically some sort of genetic material which would make them more able to endure sunlight. This does not link Olog-hai to men, but it does not preclude them either.
It seems to me that the description of the Olog-hai generally excludes a ¡°genetic¡± explanation for their sun-resistance:
¡°Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun,
so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.¡±
The sun-endurance is dependent on Sauron¡¯s will, not on genetics. Magic, rather than blood, would appear to be the factor here. Of course, it would also appear that these trolls are not made from stone, that they are not ¡°counterfeits¡± as the
Stone Trolls are, but real creatures. But this very point would exclude them from being traditional trolls with Man-blood; traditional trolls aren¡¯t real creatures, and so presumably could not ¡°breed¡± with anything.
Originally posted by aragil
What else distinguishes this breed from other trolls? Well, they are described as 'strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone.' Strong and harder than stone seem to be a given for trolls- I can't imagine a weak, soft troll. Fierce might be a characteristic of Trolls, but I tend to think of them as rather slow and ambivalent, rather than fierce. Agile and cunning strike me as decidedly un-trollish. I imagine trolls such as the Huggins', the Cave Troll of Fellowship, and the Mountain Trolls of Pelannor as being rather large and lumbering, not agile. The Hill-Trolls of the Morannon seem to be more beastlike- fierce and striding, but not cunning. They bellow, and roar like beasts.
Well, we know that the Olog-hai ¡°spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the
Black Speech of
Barad-dur.¡± We shouldn¡¯t be expecting a display of verbal pyrotechnics from them!
We see them in a battle, fighting, and they ¡°roar¡± and ¡°bellow¡±. That seems quite appropriate behaviour for a battle, and not indicative of any lack of cunning. As it was probably quite terrifying, it seems the clever thing to do!
The hill-trolls also appear quite agile: they ¡°sprang into the pools¡±, which implies more agility than we would expect from the traditional sort of troll.
Originally posted by aragil
From RotK, The Battle of the Pelannor Fields. 'East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight.'
Here at last we appear to have my beloved troll-men, called as such, and clearly operating in the sunlight. Of course, nothing is perfect, and it was not long before Tar-Elenion pointed out the following passage:
From RotK, The Battle of the Pelannor Fields. 'He (the witch king) now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.'
Well, once we have them as 'men like half-trolls', and once as 'troll-men', which is correct (or are they both correct)? Does the phrase 'like' mean that they are definitively not half-trolls? [snip]
Clearly it is not beyond the language of Tolkien to refer to real half-trolls as 'men like half-trolls'. I am not alone in my opinion, apparently. In the index to HoME volume 8, the above creatures are found in the entry for trolls, specifically called 'half-trolls of Far Harad', and they appear in the narrative as "the Variags of Khand, and the black 'half-trolls' of Far Harad." So CT also refers to them as half-trolls, although his usage of the quotes makes this reference somewhat ambiguous.
I agree there is room for ambiguity as to what these troll-men actually were (though personally I think they were just Men). However, nothing about these creatures indicates that they are to be identified with the Olog-hai.
First, they are described ambiguously. The troll-part is uncertain, while the man-part is not, as they are introduced as men ¡°like half-trolls¡±. This does not fit at all with the unambiguous ¡°Trolls they were¡± in Appendix F.
Secondly, they clearly
look like Men, not like ¡°giant Orcs.¡± We know that the Olog-hai were held by some to be giant Orcs, so we would expect them to resemble Orcs in some way. But there is nothing
Orcish about the description of these Men. We can reasonably conclude that their proportions are Man-like, not Orc-like.
Thirdly, we are told that the Olog-hai ¡°were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power.¡± Note that the objection is principally one of
size. The people of Far Harad are introduced as Men, and we know that the very largest of Orc-kind can be ¡°almost Man-high¡±, which probably indicates a height of 5¡¯ or so. To ¡°far surpass¡± ¡°almost Man-high¡±, I submit that the Olog-hai would have to be greater than Man-size, and thus cannot be creatures that are described as ¡°men¡±. Of course, we are told that the daytime hill-trolls of Gorgoroth are ¡°taller and broader than Men,¡± so they fit where the Far
Haradrim do not.
Fourthly, there is a strong geographical objection. The men at Pelennor are from Far Harad. The Olog-hai, we are told, appeared in Mirkwood and Mordor. That pretty much rules out the Far Haradrim as Olog-hai. It might also be worth noting that Sauron was resident in Dol Guldor and then Barad-dur, and so Mirkwood and Mordor appear to be natural areas for his new type of troll to appear. Far Harad appears a bit, well,
far.
Finally, a separate objection; Tolkien tells us of the Olog-hai:
¡°That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known.¡±
If ¡°-hai¡± means ¡°men¡±, then it would be perfectly obvious what Olog-hai were bred from;
Gandalf,
Elrond and the like can understand Black Speech. There would be no
mystery. If they
were the Men of Far Harad, for instance, it would be quite clear that they were of Man-stock. But it¡¯s not, and so, I submit, they are not.
Originally posted by aragil
And finally, 'rambling and convoluted contributions' are the norm here.
And a good thing too!