Uruks vs. Uruk-hai

[Cian]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
... and should feel free to give additional insight). Literally 'adan' (the singular) is an adaption to Sindarin of the Quenya 'atan' (see WotJ, Quendi & Eldar). The plural Quenya name for Men Atani literally means 'the Second Folk' (see Q&E) but is normally translated 'Men'. It comes from the Common Eldarin 'tata', 'atta' two.

Dúnedain would naturaly be given as "Western-men" as likely as Q. Núnatani, but indeed adapted adan hailed from a "second" sense in Q. atan. Adan can be glossed "Man" or "one of the Second people, folk"

There's nothing much additional about that though but thanks for the confidence vote.

 

[Greenwood]

There are two alternative interpretations. I first read LotR back in the 70's, before The Silmarillion even came out, much less any of the UT or HoME. I never thought that the Uruk-hai of Isengard were 'half-orcs'. I never thought that Sauron's 'great soldier-orcs' were not Uruk-hai. I have always thought them both to be Uruk-hai. I have always thought that 'Uruks' was an 'anglicization' of Uruk-hai. I have never thought that that the Black Speech plural of 'Uruk' would be 'Uruks'. I have always thought that 'rebel Urukhai' was refering to Sauron's Orcs. The first time I considered any of those other possibilities was when I first started reading the various Tolkien forums on the net and people were suggesting it, I did not buy it then and I do not buy it now.

Tar-Elenion

I first read LOTR in the early 1960's, more than a decade before The Silmarillion or any of the other works were published. I never thought Sauron had Uruk-hai. I always accepted the clear statements that the Uruk-hai were from Isengard. I always accepted the statements that uruks were in Mordor. I never thought of them as equivalent. The Uruk-hai proudly boast that they laugh at the sun. Treebeard says orcs fear the sun except for Saurman's orcs. He then suggests Saruman blended men and orcs to produce this tolerance. Other characters also point out the ability of Saruman's orcs to withstand the sun and others point out orc-man blends. It never occurred to me not to put all these together. It never occurred to me that Tolkien would be so confusing to his readers.

In Appendix F uruk is stated as being Black Speech. Uruk-hai is also clearly Black Speech. I have no problem with uruks being an Anglicization of uruk. I see absolutely no justification for uruks being an Anglicization of Uruk-hai. Why doesn't Tolkien say in Appendix F that the Uruk-hai come from Mordor and Isengard? Why is Uruk-hai always capitalized by Tolkien, but uruk not and uruks only sometimes? Why would Black Speech have both the words uruk and Uruk-hai? You argue that Uruk-hai is the Black Speech plural form of uruk. Are you arguing that Black Speech creates plurals by adding the suffix -hai? Are you also arguing that Black Speech also always capitalizes its plurals or that for some reason Tolkien always capitalizes Black Speech plurals when he renders them into printed text? Why would Tolkien do this? Our knowledge of Black Speech is fairly limited, but you have presented no evidence that Black Speech creates plurals by adding the suffix -hai. Indeed, based on the various opinions Cian has presented there seems to be no consensus among the 'experts' as to what -hai means. If Uruk-hai and uruk are equivalent, why does Tolkien always have the Isengarders use the term Uruk-hai? Why doesn't Gorbag call himself a Uruk-hai? Why when Sam and Frodo are masquerading as orcs in Mordor does Tolkien as the narrator refer to the large soldier orcs as uruks (lower case)? Why doesn't he call them Uruk-hai? Why do Saruman's orcs make such a point of identifying themselves as Uruk-hai, that they are from Isengard and that they disdain the sun? Why is the only other use of the suffix -hai in LOTR for a form of troll that is distinguished from all other trolls by the ability to tolerate sunlight? You have pointed out the Oghor-hai from Unfinished Tales as men who should have no problem with sunlight, but I have shown in a recent post that the Druedain (Oghor-hai) were considered goblin-like apparently because of their appearance. Goblins cannot tolerate the sun, the Druedain can. Oghor-hai is Black Speech. We now have two uses of -hai where it clearly refers to sun-tolerant types of groups that normally do not like the sun. We have a third use of -hai where it is unclear what the usage of -hai is, but where a relationship to a sun-tolerance can be argued.

Your defintion of uruks = Uruk-hai leaves many questions of Tolkien's usage of the words in LOTR a mystery. My suggestion that they are not equivalent leaves far fewer unanswered questions. Clearly, neither of us is going to move the other. As I have said at various times to Grond, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Cian]

The Olog-hai were said to be sun-tolerant so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them, and as said: "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master:..."

That's as far as I need go into the mythic conception here.

 

[Greenwood]

The Olog-hai were said to be sun-tolerant so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them, and as said: "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master:..."

Cian

Quite true. The key point here is that they were sun-tolerant, not what made them sun-tolerant. They were a different "form" of troll from other trolls, the key difference being their sun-tolerance.

 

[Grond]

Well, the arguments here are all over the place and all alternatives (even those offerred from Greenwood's acceptable texts) are being denied.

Greenwood, you claim my interpretation of the Isengard Orcs pronouncing themselves as"the Uruk-hai of Isengard" to differentiate from other groups of Uruk-hai is a stretch. You say this even when it gains added credence when combined with the reference of rebel Uruk-hai in Cirith Ungol. I disagree with your premise that it is a stretch. It is just as plausible as your assertions and in and of itself is no more compelling than any other argument. It is when combined with my other premise that -hai means greater or superior that things begin to make sense. That is, they begin to make sense if you are open minded about the subject and haven't already formed an unchangeable opinion. If one uses the primary text for the core of your idea and then uses the posthumously published material to fill in detail, one can easily decide that the Uruk-hai are unique to Saruman or one can decide that they are simply "Greater Orcs" which both Sauron and Saruman have developed who are both bigger and more light resistent.

It might be helpful here to speak of Grishnakh. He was an orc of Mordor and appeared to have no problem with light tolerance. He was larger than the Misty Mountain Orcs but smaller than the group of Isengarders. I won't deny that Saruman appeared to have created a "Greater Orc" that was superior to anything that Sauron had created. But that is not the argument here. It is, are the Uruk-hai unique to Saruman. I feel that there is insufficient evidence in the LotR to make such a determination. When the alternate works are thrown into the mix, then my opinion would be the -hai means "Greater". And the alternate texts make it clear that Sauron had these "Greater Orcs".... just maybe not as great as Saruman's.

 

[Cian]

Originally posted by Greenwood
Cian
Quite true. The key point here is that they were sun-tolerant, not what made them sun-tolerant. They were a different "form" of troll from other trolls, the key difference being their sun-tolerance.

My post was in reference to 'gene-splicing' and -hai possibly meaning "man".

I'm aware of the point you are trying to make otherwise

 

[Cian]

Originally posted by Grond
It might be helpful here to speak of Grishnakh. He was an orc of Mordor and appeared to have no problem with light tolerance. He was larger than the Misty Mountain Orcs but smaller than the group of Isengarders.

What do you make of the larger and bolder Northerners who remained among the Isengarders "Grond-returned"

 

[Greenwood]

Greenwood, you claim my interpretation of the Isengard Orcs pronouncing themselves as"the Uruk-hai of Isengard" to differentiate from other groups of Uruk-hai is a stretch. You say this even when it gains added credence when combined with the reference of rebel Uruk-hai in Cirith Ungol.

Grond

Ah, but you see, I do not accept that there are any Uruk-hai in Cirith Ungol. Therefore I do not see that there is any evidence of Uruk-hai in anyone's service but Saurman's.

 

[aragil]

Some orcs don't mind the sun, some do

"He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. Brm, hoom! Worse than that he has been doing something to them; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!"

This is Treebeard's statement, as reported earlier by Greenwood. Here Treebeard states quite clearly that orcs which are not the half-orcs of Isengard 'cannot abide the Sun'. The only alternative reading that we have is from a private communication in 'Letters' that says Treebeard is not all-knowing. By this logic, Tolkien is deliberately trying to mislead his readers with the statements of Treebeard. Apparently Tolkien knew that his private letters would later be published, so that the privileged owners of 'Letters' would get the 'heads-up' not to listen to Treebeard. Thus his deliberately misleading passage about orcs and sun tolerance would only mislead those of us who did not buy the publication of his private letters. That wily professor!!

Now, turning to the orcs of Mordor:
'East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men (Olog-hai? I thought trolls could not be bred with men!) and Variags and Orcs that hated the sunlight.'
(from 'The Battle of the Pelennor Fields', p.150 of my edition of RotK)

For right now I'll ignore the reference to troll-men, and focus on what is happening to the orcs. These are the orcs of Mordor which were sent to besiege Minas Tirith. I think it is reasonable to assume that this huge army includes any sun-resistant strains which Sauron might have posessed. Yet here Tolkien mentions that they hate sunlight in the midst of their rout. Why? It seems by the very fact that he mentions it that the sun is having an effect on the orcs. I acknowledge that this is not as direct a statement as some would like, but I think that in the greater context of the works it indicates that Sauron's breeds do not do so well in the sun (as Treebeard stated above). Before anybody uses it against me, I am aware that Treebeard says Saruman's orcs hate the sun, and here Tolkien says that Sauron's troops also hate the sun. But to say this is evidence that the two breeds are the same is to totally ignore the context of the statements. At Helm's deep the Uruk-hai claim that they care not for the sun. The next morning they are routed, the sun is brightly shining (it is described glinting off the gear of the riders), but there is no indication that the sun is having any effect on the orcs. At the Pelannor fields the orcs are given a darkness by Sauron. When the darkness is blown aside, Tolkien says that they hate the sun as they are being routed. I think that I am supported by the text here when I say that the reason Tolkien mentions their hatred of the sun is because they are affected by it, whereas the troops of Isengard are not!!

 

[aragil]

Troll-men

'East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and Orcs that hated the sunlight.'
(from 'The Battle of the Pelennor Fields', p.150 of my edition of RotK)

Well now, what do we make of this? It seems my stubborness in clinging to 'Olog-hai' as 'Troll-men' has finally paid off. Does anybody care to debate that it is possible to breed trolls with men?
I'm just going to remark now that appendix F always caught me off guard with it's mention of the Olog-hai. I always wondered why Tolkien would bother giving this description of a race found no-where in his works. Should we give this the same argument as the men-orcs? Men-orcs (not to be confused with orc-men) are mentioned nowhere outside of Morgoth's Ring, while Uruk-hai are conspicuously absent in Morgoth's Ring. Troll-men are not mentioned in Appendix F, but another breed of sunlight-tolerant trolls is, which, coincidentally, bear the name of Olog-hai. Is anybody ready to concede that Olog-hai might reasonably be translated as 'troll-men', thus keeping the good Professor from bringing up two different sun-tolerant strains of trolls in completely isolated passages?

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Greenwood
Grond

Ah, but you see, I do not accept that there are any Uruk-hai in Cirith Ungol. Therefore I do not see that there is any evidence of Uruk-hai in anyone's service but Saurman's.

Dearest Greenwood, you fail to see my point, you simply make it for me.

YOu not only don't agree that there are any Uruk-hai in Cirith Ungol, you refuse to accept the possibility that there could be any. That is an impossible stance from the outset.... unless you've conducted a seance and have actually communicated with JRRT's spirit and he's instructed you on this, it is entirely possible that the rebel Uruk-hai being referred to are from Mordor. I'm not forwarding that argument either, simply accepting that it is a possibility. Just as the statement from the Isengarder that they are "The Uruk-hai of Isengard" could be said to distinguish them from another group of Uruk-hai.

Greenwood, your apparent narrowmindedness on this matter is startling. Every logical argument made against your position on this thread is now being responded to in a very stubborn and dogged manner. I say this as no insult to you but to impress that you no longer appear to be thinking with reason. It is almost as you have taken this on as a personal cause and will prove the point regardless of evidence or cost. I continue to try to understand your fervor, but, alas, I can't. I will continue to try and reflect a voice of reason but even reason doesn't work when it is pitted against a brick wall.

Aragil, I've already responded in depth as to why I agree that Saruman had both Orc-men and Man-orcs but just as clearly answered why my opinion reflects that they are not the Uruk-hai. You may have already considered these posts and rejected them. If you haven't seen them, I encourage you to read them and see what your think. If you have read them and disagree with my assertions, I will again review both the thread and the works to construe a defendable response to you. If you would just give me a little time.

 

[Greenwood]

Grond

I have granted that the Cirith Ungol passage is open to interpretation. You and Tar-Elenion have your interpetation, which I do not agree with, but I am not demanding that you change. Aragil and I have our interpretation, which you and Tar-Elenion disagree with. I am not accusing either of you of stubborn, narrow-mindedness. I have repeatedly said that since we have two competing interpretations the Cirith Ungol passage is ambiguous and thus cannot be used to prove anything. Ignoring the Cirith Ungol passage I point to all the other times that Tolkien identifies Saruman's orc forces as Uruk-hai. Tolkien also has a number of opportunities to directly identify Mordor orcs as Uruk-hai and does not do so. He calls them Uruks.

I have yet to see any evidence to contradict the evidence I see in Tolkien's own words in LOTR.

 

[aragil]

By sun tolerant I mean that they didn't turn to stone like the ones in the hobbit. By 'endure the sun' I assume that meant that they didn't turn to stone. By 'East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men' I assume that meant that the troll-men were still moving, and thus hadn't been turned to stone. I agree that there are two alternative readings here, I just don't think that the two are equally valid:

Alternative 1: Tolkien mentions Olog-hai once in the appendix. Tolkien mentions Troll-men once in 'Battle of the Pelannor fields. The fact that neither breed turns to stone in sunlight is coincidence. Since they are mentioned separately, they are separate races.

Alternative 2: Tolkien would not mention Olog-hai in appendix F unless he were elaborating on a mention in the narrative proper. Troll-men appear to be sun-tolerant, as do Olog-hai. This is more than just coincidence, in the appendix Tolkien is further discussing Troll-men, but doing so under the Black Speech title of 'Olog-hai'.

Obviously I choose alternative 2, and given the contextual evidence I am puzzled as to why anybody would choose Alternative 1. I thought the main objection to Olog-hai being 'Troll-men' was that trolls couldn't breed with men.

(Edited to take care of bone-headed blunder pointed out by Greenwood. Where have my editing skills gone?)

 

[Greenwood]

Alternative 2: Tolkien would not mention Olog-hai in appendix F unless he were elaborating on a mention in the narrative proper. Troll-men appear to be sun-tolerant, as do Olog-hai. This is more than just coincidence, in the appendix Tolkien is further discussing Troll-men, but doing so under the Black Speech title of 'Uruk-hai'.

Aragil

Before anyone jumps on it in a negative way I will point out that you clearly mistyped in the above and that the last word should be Olog-hai.

 

[Grond]

Greenwood, I must again apologize if it appeared my mind is made up. It is not! I have yet to make any final conclusion on this subject. I am leaning towards the Uruk-hai as meaning "greater orcs" based on descriptions within the Chapter Uruk-hai in the TT and the parallel Battle at the Fords of Isen in UT . It is still perplexing in the least to have the term so prevelant in this chapter and ignored throughtout the rest of the books.

 

[aragil]

Grond:
I have read your theory regarding 'hai' meaning greater. Until recently this was my reading as well. This whole matter was first brought to my attention about 12 years ago when I was a little teenager interested in Role-Playing games. My favorite game was (naturally) Middle-Earth Role-Playing, by Iron Crown Enterprises. In the game there were several different types of Orc-races, one of which was the 'Uruks', which the game claimed to be soldiers of both Isengard and Mordor. I had always thought that 'Uruks' were the sole property of Isengard, so I first looked Rober Foster's guide, and then re-read most of the passages we are discussing here. The conclusion I came to then was that Sauron had Uruks, Saruman had Uruk-hai which were even bigger and meaner. What has become obvious in this debate is the aspect of sun-tolerance. Several characters remark on the ability of Saruman's troops to withstand sunlight- Gamling, Treebeard, and Saruman's troops themselves. Notably Gamling and Treebeard refer to the sunlight-tolerant troops as 'half-orcs', etc., while Saruman's troops refer to themselves as Uruk-hai. I believe that the easiest way to read this is that 'Uruk-hai' and 'half-orcs' are the same thing. If Sauron's orcs were also sun-tolerant, then Gamling and Treebeard would hardly need to remark on it. Similarly, why would Saruman embark on a program to breed orcs and men if he chose to only use them sparingly? Why not just use Dunlendings as spies (they'd blend in better than goblin-men) and orcs as soldiers? The best answer I can come up with (supported by numerous quotes from the text) is that orcs crossed with men fight better during the day than the orcs of Sauron.
Now, combine the use of 'hai' for orcs with that of Olog-hai: Olog-hai are apparently able to operate in the sun, as are 'troll-men'. Nothing says that these two are different races, so therefore they could be the same- hence Olog=troll, '-hai' maybe='men'.
Looking futher: Oghor-hai is a name given to the Druedain by unfriendlies (the orcs). Pukel-men and Wose are names given to the same people, also by fairly unfriendlies (the Rohirrim). Pukel comes from Old English, Wose comes from Anglo-Saxon, and Ogre comes from Middle Germanic. All three of these are languages that Tolkien knew intimately. It is not only possible that he would tie them together by adding 'man', it is likely. In fact, no outside race refers to the Druedain by anything but 'something-men', except for the possibility of the Orcs. If 'hai' is translated as anything other than 'men', then it becomes the exception in races giving names to the 'Druedain'. Why make an exception out of something we don't know the answer to?

Given this info, I think 'hai' translated as 'men' neatly applies to all three usages in Tolkien's works. 'Sunlight-tolerant' and 'Great' only do marginally well for the Woses, as the orcs would be unlikely to give them a compliment, and the orcs would also be unlikely to refer to other creatures as 'sun-tolerant', it would just be an odd usage.

 

[Cian]

something from Helge

Note Helge Fauskangers entry on olog in which he writes a "variety" of Troll, and immediately follows with Olog-hai "Olog-people".

Agree with HF or not on -hai, I thought it might be interesting to note that a trained lang-guy sees nothing awkward with slapping a collective to a "variety" of Troll.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: Troll-men

Originally posted by aragil
'East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and Orcs that hated the sunlight.'
(from 'The Battle of the Pelennor Fields', p.150 of my edition of RotK)

Well now, what do we make of this? It seems my stubborness in clinging to 'Olog-hai' as 'Troll-men' has finally paid off. Does anybody care to debate that it is possible to breed trolls with men?
I'm just going to remark now that appendix F always caught me off guard with it's mention of the Olog-hai. I always wondered why Tolkien would bother giving this description of a race found no-where in his works. Should we give this the same argument as the men-orcs? Men-orcs (not to be confused with orc-men) are mentioned nowhere outside of Morgoth's Ring, while Uruk-hai are conspicuously absent in Morgoth's Ring. Troll-men are not mentioned in Appendix F, but another breed of sunlight-tolerant trolls is, which, coincidentally, bear the name of Olog-hai. Is anybody ready to concede that Olog-hai might reasonably be translated as 'troll-men', thus keeping the good Professor from bringing up two different sun-tolerant strains of trolls in completely isolated passages?

I am more than willing to argue it. Tolkien does give a description of this race elsewhere (10 or 11 paragraphs before the one you quote). This is what he is referring to when he says 'troll-men': "but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them [the reserves] in to the fray; Easterlings with axes,and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues."

The so called 'half-trolls' are black men from the far south who are likened to the Black Trolls, but are smaller in stature (hence 'half'). The term 'troll-men' does not refer to the Olog-hai.
It is similar to the earlier description of some 'new sort' of Men that are noted as bearing a resmbalance to Dwarves "Not tall, but broad and grim, beard like dwaves, wielding great axes." From the Siege of Gondor.

Lunch time now.

 

[Grond]

Aagil, having been out of the argument (I don't use debate) for a few days, I am reviewing my research from the prior posts. As far as Half-orc is concerned, I will again reexamine the issue. I find it odd, though no one has mentioned it, that Grishnakh and his Sauron cronies had no problem with the sun. It seems the Northern Misty Mountain Orcs fled to the forest to avoid the Sun but Grishnakh and company jogged right on up with the Uruks of Isengard. The inconsistencies are what I have the greatest problem with. If you deem that Isengarders as half-orcs, wouldn't the troop of Grishnakh also fall into that category? How else do you explain their sun tolerance?

 

[aragil]

Grond- I choose to believe that the Mordor orcs fell behind the Isengarders because they were weaker in sunlight. Otherwise the 'plan' of Grishnakh's that Tolkien alludes to appears to be putting his own troops closer to the bows of the Rohirrim.