Was Éowyn's defiance of 👑King Théoden justified?

[HLGStrider]

I just realized that Eowyn is who the narrator of Till We Have Faces reminds me of </randomness>

No, I don't think so. . .Orual annoyed me sometimes, anyway, and Eowyn never did. I think Orual was harsh because she was harsh and Eowyn was harsh due to circumstances. Orual had bad circumstances, but she was harsher naturally. I think the most telling scene involving Eowyn, my favorite, is where she looks tearfully at Faramir and says, "But my window does not look west." It's a childish longing that longs to be fulfilled from someone forced to be stronger than they care to be. I don't think Orual would ever give up that strength in that way.

Anyway. . .

To your mind, exactly. But not to Eowyn's mind, which is what's important.

In my mind it would've been battle and battle is battle. . .

 

[Rhiannon]

No, I don't think so. . .Orual annoyed me sometimes, anyway, and Eowyn never did. I think Orual was harsh because she was harsh and Eowyn was harsh due to circumstances. Orual had bad circumstances, but she was harsher naturally. I think the most telling scene involving Eowyn, my favorite, is where she looks tearfully at Faramir and says, "But my window does not look west." It's a childish longing that longs to be fulfilled from someone forced to be stronger than they care to be. I don't think Orual would ever give up that strength in that way.

You're certainly right, but they still reminded me of each other.
And the name Mary makes me think of white roses for no discernable reason. Although, I think Orual was still harsh because of circumstances- her uglyness- it's just that her harshness was older and deeper set.

In my mind it would've been battle and battle is battle. . .

Except one is waiting for the battle to come to her (inactive), and the other is going out looking for it (proactive). Eowyn, like everyone's favorite Spaniard, hates waiting.

 

[HLGStrider]

My favorite Spaniard is Diego De La Vega!

ZORRO!

I don't think that was who you meant. . .hehe

Anyway, but she needed to protect the underlings!

 

[Lhunithiliel]

I participated in that debate within the Tournament and I had to defend the side that she was right in what she did....
But ever since then I've wanted to share my deep understanding that in fact she was NOT right!

Hear this Aule?! Snaga?!


I'd better not go into too much details. Rhi, and the others of course!, have expressed a lot of the truths so nicely!
To my personal view, I see only one reason for what Eowyn did - love!

I don't think she ever knew anything about her "destiny" to be in the right place, in the right moment as to kill the Witch-king.

I don't think she desired the battles truly and sincerely, either. Yes she was a proud descendant from a royal line of the proud people of the Rohirrim.... Yes she had that hot blood running in her veins... Yes, she was to some extent bound to Eorl's oath to Gondor ... It is all true! Yet, a lot of battles had been fought before and still she stayed in Meduseld! Why so suddenly then came that desire to go to a war and find a glorious death?
Because a woman, desparate for the love of a man she cannot have, is ready for two things - war and death! It's just our nature! ....

So, my views :

As a subject to her King - wrong - for leaving her people with no leader from the royal house to take care of them in the very complicated and dangerous situation of war coming up to them in full force.

As a person - wrong too. What could she achieve by dying? Would've Aragorn loved her for that? No. All she could've caused would've been only too much grief in the heart of her brother and even in Aragorn's heart, because he obviously cared for her. So, what would've her death led to? Grief and sorrow for others... Nothing more. And who could say whether she would've found peace after her death for having taken away a life that was given by Eru and only he had the authority to take it... (the last one of course is a pure speculation! )

But I see what she did as wrong.

Yet I do not blame her!! I admire Eowyn very much for what she did even if it was not a right thing to do.
But in love and war everything is possible, allowed and expected. And Eowyn went to a ....."double" war - one with the forces of Sauron and the other one - with herself.
One would need a great courage to do so!

 

[HLGStrider]

Because a woman, desparate for the love of a man she cannot have, is ready for two things - war and death!

Never came to my mind. . .of course, I personally still have a bit of hope. . .

Yet I do not blame her!!

I don't think we have to "blame" someone to say they did something wrong.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

And?........

Thank you very much for analysing so profoundly my post ( not that I want anybody to do that!) ... But I'm just curious to understand what your point is. Please, save my day!

 

[HLGStrider]

Not a whole lot of point. . .I was just agreeing with you that we don't have to blame her but we can still think she did the wrong thing.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Aaaaaa! .... Now I see

 

[Rhiannon]

I don't think that was who you meant. . .hehe

I meant Inego from The Princess Bride, but you're right, I think I love Zorro more too.

To my personal view, I see only one reason for what Eowyn did - love!

NoNoNo! It's important to realize that Eowyn only thought she was really in love with Aragorn! Even had he been free and willing to love her, she wouldn't have been perfectly happy in the long run, because a relationship between them wouldn't be on an equal footing. She didn't love Aragorn as a man- she loved him as an ideal, which you can't base a relationship on.
Eowyn had already given up her 'love' when she went seeking death.

I don't think she ever knew anything about her "destiny" to be in the right place, in the right moment as to kill the Witch-king.

Of course not- 'destiny' was the last thing on her mind.

don't think she desired the battles truly and sincerely, either. Yes she was a proud descendant from a royal line of the proud people of the Rohirrim.... Yes she had that hot blood running in her veins... Yes, she was to some extent bound to Eorl's oath to Gondor ... It is all true! Yet, a lot of battles had been fought before and still she stayed in Meduseld! Why so suddenly then came that desire to go to a war and find a glorious death?

Because she needed out No, she didn't desire battle truly and sincerely. She was, as Tolkien himself said, "not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis." But, coming from her culture of warriors, from her experience being raised in a household of men, when she thought of glory (which was what she thought she wanted), she of course thought of war.
As for a 'lot of battles' being fought before and her staying behind, she didn't want to, that much is very clear. She was trapped, by her role, by her status, by her sex; The 'desire to go to a war and find a glorious death' wasn't sudden- it was only triggered by Aragorn. He wasn't the cause, just the catalyst.

s a person - wrong too. What could she achieve by dying? Would've Aragorn loved her for that? No. All she could've caused would've been only too much grief in the heart of her brother and even in Aragorn's heart, because he obviously cared for her. So, what would've her death led to? Grief and sorrow for others... Nothing more.

But she would have died of her own choice, in her own time, on her own terms- 'with her boots on', so to speak. If we're all going to die anyway, wouldn't you rather go down fighting and take a few of the enemy with you? I concede that Eowyn was considering only herself in her decision, but was she really wrong to be making choices for herself for once? Was she wrong to take her destiny in to her own hands?

But in love and war everything is possible, allowed and expected. And Eowyn went to a ....."double" war - one with the forces of Sauron and the other one - with herself.
One would need a great courage to do so!

Thank you. I'm so glad you understand the last bit, which is really the important thing Whether she was 'right' or 'wrong' is subjective- we can argue about it forever (and I'll happily do so- my family would argue with a wall)- but that she was courageous and valient and admirable can't be denied (except by Aule when he's trying to tick me off).

I concede that she did do what she did for a lot of the 'wrong' reasons, but also for some of the right ones- at the very least it was a proactive step in the general area of the right direction. I concede that what she did being right or wrong is subjective- I think she was possibly wrong on one level, and very right on another- But in the end she's still admirable. She still went through fire and came out stronger at the other end.

<edit> And as I just saw pointed out elseforum recently: On the question of whether Eowyn was a deserter or not, you'll notice that no character in the book ever mentions the idea. Ever.

 

[Flammifer]

OK, let's just clear one thing up! Rhi, I'm not going to criticise Eowyn's character, for fear of your wrath! . But I am going to criticise her decision....

But she had no way of knowing that those orcs were going to show up. She would still have been left stewing in her own depression (not a healthy way to be, which is why on a personal level she was right to go, in my opinion). And the Ents were there. That's a very what-if argument, Aule.

I agree with you that she shouldn't have let herself get all depressed, but I don't think that riding to Gondor would have stopped that. She knew that war would come to her inevitably. She simply knew she'd have to fight. But so eager was she to prove her valour, that she selfishly and rashly disobeyed the orders of her King AND left her own people, who she was supposed to be leading, just to find war that would come to her regardless.

Desperate, yes, but that doesn't make her not admirable. Maybe staying behind would have been the better thing, but we have no way of knowing. Eowyn was in a high situation ruling, yes, but she was still restricted by the fact that she was a woman. She's obviously been trained to fight, but not allowed to use her training. Yes, she left for primarily selfish reasons. Right thing, wrong reasons. Conceded. As she says to Aragorn: "'Too often have I heard of duty', she cried. 'But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?'" She wants out. She needs out. And later: "She answered: 'All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.'" (I just realized that Eowyn is who the narrator of Till We Have Faces reminds me of </randomness>

We're not debating how admirable Eowyn was in battle (well, I'm not), but her rash decision to go to battle. You say "She wants out. She needs out." Granted. But sometimes you need to put the needs of the masses ahead of your personal desires. Eowyn, as the appointed ruler of her people whilst Theoden was at battle, needed to do this. She should have done this. But she didn't. It was a rash, selfish decision. Luckily it turned out for the best!

 

[Rhiannon]

Rhi, I'm not going to criticise Eowyn's character, for fear of your wrath!

Aw, c'mon. I won't hurt you.

Much.

I agree with you that she shouldn't have let herself get all depressed, but I don't think that riding to Gondor would have stopped that. She knew that war would come to her inevitably. She simply knew she'd have to fight. But so eager was she to prove her valour, that she selfishly and rashly disobeyed the orders of her King AND left her own people, who she was supposed to be leading, just to find war that would come to her regardless.

She did not know that war would come to her. And she wasn't content to sit and wait for it. She was not 'eager to prove her valour', she wanted death. She did leave her people, but she was already done leading them to the refuge. Was she ordered to stay? Theoden obviously expected her too, but men expects lots of things. Was she disobeying a direct command? Was she really putting the people in so much jeopardy by leaving? What difference would her presence have made?
Remember that she had the support of Elfhelm, who comes off as a reasonable and trustworthy character to me. Would he have helped her deception if it would endanger the people?
You're right, riding to Gondor didn't stop her depression. Faramir's love and understanding, and his acceptance of her as she was, took away Eowyn's depression. Being loved unconditionally took away the need to prove herself (you notice that the need, the sense of worthlessness, didn't go away even after she slew the Nazgul. She still felt that she hadn't done enough). Eowyn didn't fight because she liked it; she was brave, yes, very, and skilled, yes; she was more than capable of fighting, but it gave her no pleasure, except as a way to prove herself. But taking action was a step in the right direction. (can you tell that the misconception of Eowyn as some kind of Xena Warrior-Princess is one of my pet peeves? That and her love for Aragorn meaning she didn't love Faramir and was only on the rebound. THAT bugs me).

Granted. But sometimes you need to put the needs of the masses ahead of your personal desires. Eowyn, as the appointed ruler of her people whilst Theoden was at battle, needed to do this. She should have done this. But she didn't. It was a rash, selfish decision. Luckily it turned out for the best!

'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one', right, Spock Right, sometimes you do need to put the needs of the masses ahead of your personal desires. But sometimes you need to put the needs of yourself first. Eowyn was being slowly suffocated and no one was doing anything about it.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
NoNoNo! It's important to realize that Eowyn only thought she was really in love with Aragorn! Even had he been free and willing to love her, she wouldn't have been perfectly happy in the long run, because a relationship between them wouldn't be on an equal footing. She didn't love Aragorn as a man- she loved him as an ideal, which you can't base a relationship on.

I wonder.... Where then to fit Tolkien's own views on love, man-woman relations etc, as we read them in his Letter No:43 : (just bits)

A man has a life-work, a career, (and male friends), all of which could (and do where he has any guts) survive the shipwreck of 'love'.

Anyway women are in general much less romantic and more practical. Don't be misled by the fact that they are more 'sentimental' in words – freer with 'darling', and all that. They do not want a guiding star. They may idealize a plain young man into a hero; but they don't really need any such glamour either to fall in love or to remain in it. If they have any delusion it is that they can 'reform' men. They will take a rotter open-eyed, and even when the delusion of reforming him fails, go on loving him. ...

That was speaking about "idealizing" partners. I deffinitely think Arwen was Aragorn's "goddess", his "divine ideal" ... As for Eowyn, I agree that to a great extent she had idealized Aragorn...but I think she was truly in love with the realhim. And I am also deeply convinced that even if she married Faramir, that love...or rather said - the bitterness of not being able to have it - lived forever in her. I am not convinced at all that she loved Faramir the way she did Aragorn!

Eowyn had already given up her 'love' when she went seeking death.

How did you come to this conclusion!!!!????

Because she needed out. No, she didn't desire battle truly and sincerely. She was, as Tolkien himself said, "not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis." But, coming from her culture of warriors, from her experience being raised in a household of men, when she thought of glory (which was what she thought she wanted), she of course thought of war.
As for a 'lot of battles' being fought before and her staying behind, she didn't want to, that much is very clear. She was trapped, by her role, by her status, by her sex; The 'desire to go to a war and find a glorious death' wasn't sudden- it was only triggered by Aragorn. He wasn't the cause, just the catalyst.

Agree on these features of her characters! Still.... You said it - it was all "triggered" by her love for Aragorn ...so ... in the final run...here we come again to love!

But she would have died of her own choice, in her own time, on her own terms- 'with her boots on', so to speak. If we're all going to die anyway, wouldn't you rather go down fighting and take a few of the enemy with you? I concede that Eowyn was considering only herself in her decision, but was she really wrong to be making choices for herself for once? Was she wrong to take her destiny in to her own hands?

She was true to herself! What she did was only because not being able to have Aragorn's love was the "last drop in the cup of bitterness" that life had been offering to her for a long time! And she finally decided to "drink" it in full.

 

[Rhiannon]

That was speaking about "idealizing" partners. I deffinitely think Arwen was Aragorn's "goddess", his "divine ideal" ...As for Eowyn, I agree that to a great extent she had idealized Aragorn...but I think she was truly in love with him. And I am also deeply convinced that even if she married Faramir, that love...or rather said - the bitterness of not being able to have it - lived forever in her. I am not convinced at all that she loved Faramir the way she did Aragorn!

Of course she didn't! She did love Aragorn, but as Faramir says, "You desired the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may seem to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable." She didn't love Aragorn the man, but loved and admired Aragorn the king, and saw him as a way out of her 'cage'. As I said, a relationship between them could never have been one of equals. As Tolkien says in Letter 244: "It is possible to love more than one person (of the other sex) at the same time, but in a different mode and intensity. I do not think that Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn really changed much; and when he was revealed as so lofty a figure, in descent and office, she was able to go on loving and admiring him." (bold text mine, italics Tolkien's).

I am also deeply convinced that even if she married Faramir, that love...or rather said - the bitterness of not being able to have it - lived forever in her.

Ouch. You've hit it: my Number One Pet Peeve. Eowyn did not marry Faramir because she was on the rebound, she did not continue to pine after Aragorn, she was not bitter, and she did truly love Faramir. When it says "Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her" that is Eowyn realizing that what she thought she wanted wasn't it at all- what she wanted was the unconditional love that Faramir gives her. Faramir was not her second choice; he was the choice she hadn’t realized she had. Eowyn's love for Faramir is never in doubt!

How did you come to this conclusion!!!!????

By reading the book, she said facetiously. As Faramir says: "But when he [Aragorn] gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle."

Agree on these features of her characters! Still.... You said it: it was all "triggered" by her love for Aragorn ...so ... in the final run...here we come again to love!

...except it wasn't really love! It was just the straw that broke the camel's back. It was the door slamming in the face that sends you jumping out the nearest window. She was looking at Aragorn as her last way out, and when he denied her she took matters in to her own hands.

She was true to herself! What she did was only because not being able to have Aragorn's love was the "last drop in the cup of bitterness" that life had been offering to her for a long time! And she finally decided to "drink" it in full.

Yes, exactly- so how is being true to herself wrong???

 

[Flammifer]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
She did not know that war would come to her. And she wasn't content to sit and wait for it. She was not 'eager to prove her valour', she wanted death. She did leave her people, but she was already done leading them to the refuge. Was she ordered to stay? Theoden obviously expected her too, but men expects lots of things. Was she disobeying a direct command? Was she really putting the people in so much jeopardy by leaving? What difference would her presence have made?

She was the last of the House or Eorl. She was, by blood, her people's leader. It was her responsibility to stay with them, to whatever end. She was leading women and children. All loved her. They would follow her. If not her, then who? She was the last of the ruling house. If they had needed to flee Dunharrow, she would have needed to lead them. If the appointed leader did not do her job, chaos would have broken out, should they have needed to flee.

Originally posted by RhiannonRemember that she had the support of Elfhelm, who comes off as a reasonable and trustworthy character to me. Would he have helped her deception if it would endanger the people?

Touché. A good point. But Eowyn is a trustworty and kindly character, also. Yet from what I claim we cannot trust her judgement. So why should be trust Elfhelm's?

Originally posted by Rhiannon
Eowyn didn't fight because she liked it; she was brave, yes, very, and skilled, yes; she was more than capable of fighting, but it gave her no pleasure, except as a way to prove herself.

There you go. You've said it yourself. She wanted to prove herself. Yet she could have done it in whatever company or in any place. There was no doubt in her mind that at a point she would have to fight. This point, surely, can't be disputed, considering the times.

Originally posted by Rhiannon
'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one', right, Spock Right, sometimes you do need to put the needs of the masses ahead of your personal desires. But sometimes you need to put the needs of yourself first. Eowyn was being slowly suffocated and no one was doing anything about it.

Is Spock from Star Trek? Well, I didn't base my comment on that. I just kind of said it. It makes sense to me! I agree that occasionally you need to put your own requirements first. But I don't think that this was such a time. War would come to her anyway. She'd have to fight eventually. If anything, like Elgee said, she would have won more renown fighting in Dunharrow or somewhere, trying to protect her people, rather than winning renown amongst others who might have done more. It was unforeseeable that she did end up winning renown that dwarfed that of others at the Pelennor.

 

[Rhiannon]

She was the last of the House or Eorl. She was, by blood, her people's leader. It was her responsibility to stay with them, to whatever end. She was leading women and children. All loved her. They would follow her. If not her, then who? She was the last of the ruling house. If they had needed to flee Dunharrow, she would have needed to lead them. If the appointed leader did not do her job, chaos would have broken out, should they have needed to flee.

Had they needed to flee...where to? They didn't have anywhere else to flee to. But you make it sound as though nothing could have been done without Eowyn's presence. There were Riders left at Dunharrow, and captains, who must have known she was gone. My idea is that Elfhelm arranged things, but that's just a thought. There's no evidence. But the people were not without protection and leadership. Why so important to have a member of the ruling house present?

Touché. A good point. But Eowyn is a trustworty and kindly character, also. Yet from what I claim we cannot trust her judgement. So why should be trust Elfhelm's?

Why should we trust anyone's? But Eowyn was under duress, depression, all kinds of chaos beneath the surface that might make her judgement questionable: Elfhelm has (as far as we know) no such issues.

There you go. You've said it yourself. She wanted to prove herself. Yet she could have done it in whatever company or in any place. There was no doubt in her mind that at a point she would have to fight. This point, surely, can't be disputed, considering the times.

Yes, it's undeniable that she wanted to prove herself...but when you want to prove yourself you don't wait for the opportunity to come to you! There was a doubt in her mind that she would at some point have the opportunity to fight- she believed that she would always be left behind to 'tend the house', always pushed back in to her cage.

s Spock from Star Trek? Well, I didn't base my comment on that. I just kind of said it. It makes sense to me! I agree that occasionally you need to put your own requirements first. But I don't think that this was such a time. War would come to her anyway. She'd have to fight eventually. If anything, like Elgee said, she would have won more renown fighting in Dunharrow or somewhere, trying to protect her people, rather than winning renown amongst others who might have done more. It was unforeseeable that she did end up winning renown that dwarfed that of others at the Pelennor.

Yes, Spock is from Star Trek. I didn't think you got it from there, it just reminded me of it and I was being facetious. It is almost 3am, I'm allowed to be silly even while ranting. Eowyn did not think that war would come to her. As far as she knew, the war would (and was, except for those errant orcs) be fought and finished in Gondor. Had she remained at Dunharrow, the war still wouldn't have come to her- I hear a lot of 'if the ents hadn't been there...' but they were, so no, Eowyn wouldn't have had the opportunity to fight because they were already dealt with. The point is Eowyn taking control of her destiny, breaking out of her cage, freeing herself from the constrictions of her role.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Of course she didn't! She did love Aragorn, but as Faramir says, "You desired the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may seem to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable." She didn't love Aragorn the man, but loved and admired Aragorn the king, and saw him as a way out of her 'cage'.

Never will I agree on such a thing! Not the King she loved! Because not the King came to Edoras and not the King the fair Rohan Princess spotted out but the man! And the man it was that she fell in love with! At that time... how much did Eowyn know about Aragorn? Did she know him as the King of Gondor? No! But as a man he attracted her attention and for what he was, for the way he acted, for being a friend to her brother and her uncle, even for the way he looked... she fell in love with the man!
So... You see.... It was not Aragorn the King whom she met first and fell in love with! It was Aragorn - the man!

As for Faramir's words... He loved her deeply ... yet... I am completely sure that what he was saying was only to try to comfort her. He was a clever boy, that Faramir! He would've never expected Eowyn to love him as she loved Aragorn. Yet..."Why not try and analyse your love, my dear?! Let me show you that you could perhaps love me too...For I deserve it! " And just too well he deserved her love!!!! He deserved any woman's love!!! Yet.... What Faramir did for Eowyn was for love only.... But one would be mistaken if takes those words for granted without trying to feel what lies beneath them.
As for Eowyn herself ..... Didn't you provide that excellent quote from T's Letter:

As Tolkien says in Letter 244: "It is possible to love more than one person (of the other sex) at the same time, but in a different mode and intensity.

And with the risk of being crucified ... Why is it that I think of that fable about the fox and the grapes when I read those extracts when Eowyn's heart was "cured" from her "false" love to Aragorn....?!?

I know... I know! You'll say: "Lhun, it's all there in the book as Tolkien has written it!". Sure! Yet few are the complex and "multy-layer" - characters that he worked on in his LOTR and Eowyn is fortunately one of them. One cannot only read the lines about her and not try read between them!

 

[Rhiannon]

Never will I agree on such a thing! Not the King she loved! Because not the King came to Edoras and not the King the fair Rohan Princess spotted out but the man! And the man it was that she fell in love with! At that time... how much did Eowyn know about Aragorn? Did she know him as the King of Gondor? No! But as a man he attracted her attention and for what he was, for the way he acted, for being a friend to her brother and her uncle, even for the way he looked... she fell in love with the man!
So... You see.... It was not Aragorn the King whom she met first and fell in love with! It was Aragorn - the man!

He aura of greatness, then. No one can deny that Aragorn had charisma oozing out of his pores. Eowyn had plenty of opportunities to see him taking charge. And as you said- how much did Eowyn know about Aragorn? Nothing! How can you really love someone you know nothing about?

As for Faramir's words... He loved her deeply ... yet... I am completely sure that what he was saying was only to try to comfort her.

*mutters* Heathen...Tolkien makes it very clear that Faramir is 'clear-sighted', that in some ways he understands Eowyn better than she does herself. He sees her as she is, as a woman, free of all the things that have defined her to everyone else for so long.

He would've never expected Eowyn to love him as she loved Aragorn.

Nor did he. Tolkien also makes it clear that Eowyn's love for Aragorn was of a different kind entirely.

And just too well he deserved her love!!!! He deserved any woman's love!!! Yet.... What Faramir did for Eowyn was for love only.... But one would be mistaken if takes those words for granted without trying to feel what lies beneath them.

I'm flabbergasted, really I am. You're saying Faramir lied to Eowyn in order to secure her affections for himself and 'comfort' her, but this is okay because he deserved her????
Paint me white and call me Moby ****.

Why is it that I think of that fable about the fox and the grapes when I read those extracts when Eowyn's heart was "cured" from her "false" love to Aragorn....?!?

Not 'cured' of a 'false love, merely recognizing one kind of love as not being the king she thought it was. Her feelings didn't change, she just understood what they were. "The heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it."

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
He aura of greatness, then. No one can deny that Aragorn had charisma oozing out of his pores. Eowyn had plenty of opportunities to see him taking charge. And as you said- how much did Eowyn know about Aragorn? Nothing! How can you really love someone you know nothing about?

Yes! One can! It's called love at first sight and it is such a common phenomenon in both - real and imaginary worlds. For what is happening in an imaginary world is nothing but some sort of odd reflection of the real one.

*mutters* Heathen...Tolkien makes it very clear that Faramir is 'clear-sighted', that in some ways he understands Eowyn better than she does herself. He sees her as she is, as a woman, free of all the things that have defined her to everyone else for so long.

And ? What does it have to do with her self-denial? And the with the reasons to do so - some out of responsibility as being from a royal blood , but most of all - out of the despair for finding a love and understanding she cannot have it. He may very well understand her... but it does not change her state of mind and soul.

Nor did he. Tolkien also makes it clear that Eowyn's love for Aragorn was of a different kind entirely.

You know.... we're coming into the danger of starting a large philosophic discussion of what love is and does it or does it not have "many faces"

I'm flabbergasted, really I am. You're saying Faramir lied to Eowyn in order to secure her affections for himself and 'comfort' her, but this is okay because he deserved her????
Paint me white and call me Moby ****.

Hmmm... Honestly.. I did not quite well understood that with the "Moby" - thing...
Anyway... When have I said that Faramir lied to Eowyn????? Common!!! You're wrong to have understood my words about Faramir as if I picture him as a lusful lier! He was not Wormtongue!!! I said that he was all enough worthy her love (as any woman's) for what he was! His love for her was pure....yet sadly...he had to be the "second fiddle". And no matter how sad that was, he still loved her dearly and he was honest to him for not pretending and thinking and having illusions that she could ever love him as she loved Aragorn!

Not 'cured' of a 'false love, merely recognizing one kind of love as not being the king she thought it was. Her feelings didn't change, she just understood what they were. "The heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it."

And what exactly did she understand?

 

[Rhiannon]

Yes! One can! It's called love at first sight and it is such a common phenomenon in both - real and imaginary worlds. For what is happening in an imaginary world is nothing but some sort of odd reflection of the real one.

Not a phenomenon I have much faith in. Yes, I know lots of people who have fallen in 'love at first sight', that is, at first meeting, but they all spent a lot of time talking during that first meeting, which Eowyn and Aragorn did not.

And ? What does it have to do with her self-denial? And the with the reasons to do so - some out of responsibility as being from a royal blood , but most of all - out of the despair for finding a love and understanding she cannot have it. He may very well understand her... but it does not change her state of mind and soul.

Yes it DOES. Faramir is what she didn't realize she wanted. We've established that Eowyn wasn't really a warrior by nature, though perfectly capable of it and coming from a culture that dictated being a warrior as the most honourable of occupations. When she tells Faramir she will be a healer, she isn't changing herself, she's only realizing that she doesn't need this warrior-stuff to be herself. She comes in to her own- she understands her own heart. It doesn't change her mind or soul, but it does change the 'state' of them- she finds peace.

You know.... we're coming into the danger of starting a large philosophic discussion of what love is and does it or does it not have "many faces"

It does have many faces- the Greeks had what, three different words for love? Or was it four?

Hmmm... Honestly.. I did not quite well understood that with the "Moby" - thing...

Moby D-i-c-k, the very long novel about the white whale. Never mind, it was 3am, I'm entitled to spout silly nonsense in between arguments.

Anyway... When have I said that Faramir lied to Eowyn????? Common!!! You're wrong to have understood my words about Faramir as if I picture him as a lusful lier! He was not Wormtongue!!! I said that he was all enough worthy her love (as any woman's) for what he was! His love for her was pure....yet sadly...he had to be the "second fiddle". And no matter how sad that was, he still loved her dearly and he was honest to him for not pretending and thinking and having illusions that she could ever love him as she loved Aragorn!

You said "I am completely sure that what he was saying was only to try to comfort her. He was a clever boy, that Faramir!" Doesn't that mean he didn't really mean what he said? Faramir was not her second choice- he was the choice she didn't realize she had. She didn't love his as she loved Aragorn, she loved him differently and more truly. Even as Aragorn says to Eomer in 'The Houses of Healing': "Few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man's heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned. Sorrow and pity have followed me ever since I left her desperate in Dunharrow and rode to the Paths of the Dead; and no fear upon that way was so present as the fear of what might befall her. And yet, Eomer I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan."

And what exactly did she understand?

1. That she did not love Aragorn in the way she thought she did.
2. That she did not want death in battle as she thought she did, but only saw it as her only way out.
3. That her desire for honor and glory was based in her feelings of worthlessness and of being trapped, left behind and forgotten. As Tolkien wrote, she was not 'ambitious in the true political sense'. She wanted to be valued, she had no real desire for power.
4. That what she wanted and needed was to be loved, valued, and cherished, to know that she was not alone, not forgotten.
5. That she was not going to get these things from Aragorn, or from glory, or from death.
6. That what she wanted was what Faramir was offering her- unconditional love.

If Eowyn did not truly love Faramir, why did she turn pale and sad again after he left the Houses of Healing? Why didn't she go to Cormallen, where she would have been able to see Aragorn?

 

[HLGStrider]

doobie doobie doo

It's important to realize that Eowyn only thought she was really in love with Aragorn!

I'm a great defender of the Eowyn really did love Aragorn theory, not because of any dislike of Faramir or my over active Aragorn admiration, but simply due to my A. Beliefs on love and B. my experiences with love.

Eowyn had already given up her 'love' when she went seeking death.

I don't think she did. I think she didn't give up on Aragorn until Faramir began to grow in her heart. Then I think she went through the struggle any girl would go through loving two men at once. I think that the love of Aragorn would've faded into a dim memory, and probably a bitter one, without Faramir, but with Faramir it was allowed not to grow bitter. It was allowed to rest and become a desire to see Aragorn happy. . .imagine what she would've thought of Arwen had this not happened. . .or of Aragorn for that matter. However, in the one time we see Eowyn address Aragorn after the Faramir thing she seems kindly disposed towards him but not embarrassed or bitter as I think she would be if she'd realized it was just a kid crushed (Embarrassed if she recovered in an "I CAN'T believe what I was doing because of this guy! He must think I'm such an idiot. ..and what would Faramir say if he knew? Or Eomer! Eomer will never let me forget it. . .like the time I said I wanted to marry the captain of the guards. He teased me for six months. And I was SEVEN! . . ." kind of way.
Bitter if she recovered in a "Gosh, he really isn't that great. You know he's sort of old for me. I really wouldn't have liked him anyway. . ." sort of way. . .maybe not bitter but she wouldn't have wanted friendship.)

Only in maintaining love but growing it into the sort that wants the best for the other person instead of the best for yourself (Agape over Erros to bring up those Greek words), can what Eowyn reached be achieved.

If we're all going to die anyway, wouldn't you rather go down fighting and take a few of the enemy with you?

Not personally. . . Isn't there a stay at home and write option?

Was she wrong to take her destiny in to her own hands?

At the cost of others, yes.

Was she really putting the people in so much jeopardy by leaving?

She was breaking promises. You have to remember that she was appointed by Theoden at the REQUEST pf the people. I imagine there was near panic when they realized she was gone. They probably felt abandoned. However, I imagine they forgave her when they heard what happened.

Would he have helped her deception if it would endanger the people?

For the love of his princess? Yes, probably.

She still felt that she hadn't done enough

I wouldn't say her feelings are of inadequacy. Rather she didn't know what she had to live for or the reason to live. I've felt that way before due to love. It's lonely and you think, "What am I going to do without him? Without the life I wanted for us?" I think the battle and death in it was an easy answer to that question.

I am not convinced at all that she loved Faramir the way she did Aragorn!

Love has a dozen faces. I think she eventually loved Faramir a LOT more.

Yes, exactly- so how is being true to herself wrong???

Easily.

'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one', right, Spock

I've never liked this and have argued against this before. .. I think Harad got insulted when I called him a Vulcan, but that was Harad. . .

Anyway, I think that right outways wrong. I think the wrong was broken promises.

Elfhelm has (as far as we know) no such issues.

Well, he is going to a counselor on tuesdays and Fridays and AA on sundays. . .

No one can deny that Aragorn had charisma oozing out of his pores.

Bill Ferny probably would.

You know.... we're coming into the danger of starting a large philosophic discussion of what love is and does it or does it not have "many faces"

Eriol would love that. . .

Not a phenomenon I have much faith in.

In our world, no. In Tolkien's, yes. Think Beren and Luthien. Think Arwen and Aragorn.