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I don't thinks so.
I don't thinks so.
Of course you can think such. And I respect you all the way. But don't the elves and elven characters of middle-earth mythology really resemble the American people, that is, Americans and American famous personalities? For example, elves are extremely beautiful-faced beings in middle earth. In middle earth mythology, no race or entity is rival to elves in terms of beauty among all created beings. In fact, some elves like Feanor are more impressive-looking and beautiful than valar and maiar. American people are very beautiful-faced people just like elves. Even, the most beautiful people with the most beautiful faces in the world are the Americans. The elves are very talented and skilled beings in every field in the middle earth. American people, both white and black, are very talented in the all fields and the best in the world in the all fields. Elves are the supreme race in warfare. The Americans are the best in the world, if not in medieval weapons, but in other war situations, namely in modern warfare and group skirmishes with rifles and pistols. Elf girls start to walk and sing when they are only 1 year old. Similar to this situation, the most singers women and even singers men in the world, even the best and most successful people of singing in the world, always came from America. Moreover, elves are extremely calm and humble despite their superior physical strength and superior abilities in every field. American people are very quiet and have very calm behavior and movements in any environment even in schools. Although Tolkien is English, I think Tolkien took the Americans as an example when he created the elf race. If he had the opportunity, I think he would have gone to America instead of England when he immigrated from South Africa.I don't thinks so.
Also, I don't see Melkor killing Manwe in any earlier versions of this "prophecy" (. . .) There is a text included in The Istari section of Unfinished Tales that mentions "Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns."
But that's not only not part of the Second Prophecy proper, in any case Manwe isn't said to be killed by anyone here. Is there some other text that should be in play?
Why not link that video here?If you don't mind asking, how do you know that tolkien didn't say that melkor killed manwe in dagor dagorath? I got the information that melkor killed manwe in dagor dagorath from a youtube channel that was made entirely for middle earth and made informational videos about middle earth. that is, a middle earth historian telling dagor dagorath in the video was telling. at the same time, another middle earth scholar who was not in this forum told me that melkor killed manwe in dagor dagorath he had said. As for tulkas subject, yes melkor defeated dagor dagorath ta tulkas in any way is a speculation both by me and by most middle earth fans. because some middle earth fans and followers in different environments so i.e. other internet platforms people actually assume that melkor defeated tulkas and there is no problem for them to think about it. Because Melkor is literally the most powerful being in all fictional universes. He can defeat Beyonder Thanos Living Tribunal and even all Marvel characters at the same time. Moreover, his strength and might are so great that even creatures in the real universe cannot understand. Greater than space in the real universe and greater than the sum of all galaxies in real universe to the hidden space the hidden darkness, only Melkor was able to go, to find the secret fire of the eru. I don't remember any other vala ever going there. and has the ability to manipulate and change all of reality. How can such a man not be able to defeat the tulkas with all his might? I think melkor was defeated tulkas in dagor dagorath. Even, if Tolkien was alive and said otherwise, i.e. he says tulkas defeated melkor, I would have talked to Tolkien one-on-one and convinced him. For it is an insult to Melkor's traits for a man like Melkor to be defeated by tulkas.
You're flat-out making things up at this point and making weird generalizations. Please just stop 🙏Of course you can think such. And I respect you all the way. But don't the elves and elven characters of middle-earth mythology really resemble the American people, that is, Americans and American famous personalities? For example, elves are extremely beautiful-faced beings in middle earth. In middle earth mythology, no race or entity is rival to elves in terms of beauty among all created beings. In fact, some elves like Feanor are more impressive-looking and beautiful than valar and maiar. American people are very beautiful-faced people just like elves. Even, the most beautiful people with the most beautiful faces in the world are the Americans. The elves are very talented and skilled beings in every field in the middle earth. American people, both white and black, are very talented in the all fields and the best in the world in the all fields. Elves are the supreme race in warfare. The Americans are the best in the world, if not in medieval weapons, but in other war situations, namely in modern warfare and group skirmishes with rifles and pistols. Elf girls start to walk and sing when they are only 1 year old. Similar to this situation, the most singers women and even singers men in the world, even the best and most successful people of singing in the world, always came from America. Moreover, elves are extremely calm and humble despite their superior physical strength and superior abilities in every field. American people are very quiet and have very calm behavior and movements in any environment even in schools. Although Tolkien is English, I think Tolkien took the Americans as an example when he created the elf race. If he had the opportunity, I think he would have gone to America instead of England when he immigrated from South Africa.
This is very difficult because it hinges on the question of what constitutes "beauty"? In appearance, it is more of a subjective standard, is it not? And yet, if you delve deeper into what beauty is, you will find countless accounts from philosophers trying to unravel the true meaning. Do you mean "classical beauty"? If so, that is a whole other arena, and very much warrants its own study altogether. And what about those that don't see 'beauty' in the standard it is presented?Even, the most beautiful people with the most beautiful faces in the world are the Americans.
If you've noticed my friend, I didn't make anything up. Because I didn't say anything that would be made up. The whole article is purely my personal opinion. That's all.Why not link that video here?
You're flat-out making things up at this point and making weird generalizations. Please just stop 🙏
I don't mean disrespect but Americans (me being one) are not the most beautiful people in the world, I don't think we look much different than anyone else. For the most part, we're just people. We could get into deep world politics and have some very interesting discussion about our country's history, but politics are not something that we welcome here on TTF, so we'll leave that beast where it lies.Of course you can think such. And I respect you all the way. But don't the elves and elven characters of middle-earth mythology really resemble the American people, that is, Americans and American famous personalities? For example, elves are extremely beautiful-faced beings in middle earth. In middle earth mythology, no race or entity is rival to elves in terms of beauty among all created beings. In fact, some elves like Feanor are more impressive-looking and beautiful than valar and maiar. American people are very beautiful-faced people just like elves. Even, the most beautiful people with the most beautiful faces in the world are the Americans.
Whether or not Tolkien has an intention to turn the dagor dagorath into a men legend later on, everyone sees the dagor dagorath as a lived and canon event. ie result; Tolkien's thought did not make this war canon. People's thought made this war canon.I think I found the text this person might be referring to: a text in the Myths Transformed section of Morgoth's Ring, text VII: "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion", section ii.
But before I post the relevant section, I should note that this is Tolkien-as-author, not Tolkien-as-translator. In other words, this is a text wherein Tolkien is thinking with the pen about his story,
not writing Middle-earth history as its fictional translator. In other, other words, this is JRR Tolkien "speaking", not Pengolodh, not Elfwine, not an in-story scribe, even if some of it reads like "decided upon" history, or a revision of already written history.
Anyway, with that in mind . . .
"He [Manwe] like Melkor, practically never is seen or heard of outside or far away from his own halls or permanent residence. Why is this? For no very profound reason. The Government is always in Whitehall. King Arthur is usually in Camelot or Caerleon, and news and adventures come there and arise there. The "Elder King: is obviously not going to be finally defeated or destroyed, at least not before some ultimate "Ragnarok" -- which even for us is still in the future, so he can have no real "adventures".
[my paragraph break, not Tolkien's]
"But if you keep him at home, the issue of any particular event (since it cannot then result in a final "checkmate") can remain in literary suspense. Even to the final war against Morgoth it is Fionwe son of Manwe who leads out the power of the Valar. When we move out Manwe it will be the last battle, and the end of the World (or of "Arda Marred") as the Eldar would say."
This last bit contains an interesting bit, since Fionwe "son of Manwe" would itself be revised. Eonwe herald of Manwe).
So from this I can understand such an interpretation, but for myself, I'm not sure Tolkien is here certainly stating that Manwe will be destroyed in a Ragnarokian scenario, only that he cannot be before such a scenario, and in any case, the literary suspense is maintained if Manwe is "at home" [usually], and Melkor likewise "at home"
Tolkien adds: ["Morgoth's staying "at home" has, as described above, quite a different reason: his fear of being killed or even hurt (the literary motive is not present, for since he is pitted against the Elder King, the issue of any one of his enterprises is always in doubt.)]"
In any case, Tolkien has also characterized the Dagor Dagorath as a mannish myth, "clearly made by Men", so why should a reader necessarily need to read it as a future truth about the End Times?
You may find this thread of interest:
No no it's just my personal opinion that tolkien elves were inspired by americans. That's my personal think. I just guessed. I must have exaggerated a bit if I said that Tolkien elves were American and that was correct information.I'm sorry.I don't mean disrespect but Americans (me being one) are not the most beautiful people in the world, I don't think we look much different than anyone else. For the most part, we're just people. We could get into deep world politics and have some very interesting discussion about our country's history, but politics are not something that we welcome here on TTF, so we'll leave that beast where it lies.
Back to the topic, I highly doubt Tolkien modeled elves off of us (Americans). Is there a citation for this somewhere? You say you're not making it up, can you please show evidence of this then? If not, then I have to say that this is rubbish.
No apologies, I understand. Sorry if I came off as rude, I wasn't sure if that was your opinion or not but appreciate you clarifying.
ie result; Tolkien's thought did not make this war canon. People's thought made this war canon.
(and published by Tolkien himself)
No doubt, if it conflicted with what HE had already published, he would have tried to ammend the published work in its next generation.
Yes, he speaks of this himself, seemingly putting an end to the 'argumnet'.... though many still do.Tolkien did want certain purposed inconsistencies (or seeming inconsistencies
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