Tolkien's worst character

[TheManInTheMoon]

She also says he's dwelt in the West since the days of Dawn

And Lorien is in Westlands.

She never

She says "I" she didn't say "we".

Nonsense, she doesn't say what kind of Elf he is

She doesn't. But Celeborn can't be a Sinda if he wasn't from Beleriand.

 

[Olorgando]

This one of those cases where it's basically to everyone their own canon.

 

[ZehnWaters]

And Lorien is in Westlands.

That depends on your point of view. It's not if Beleriand exists. It's east of two mountain ranges and the coast. It's east of potentially two kingdoms or realms.

She says "I" she didn't say "we".

So? She doesn't say he DIDN'T come with her.

She doesn't. But Celeborn can't be a Sinda if he wasn't from Beleriand.

Maybe he was from Beleriand. She said he'd dwelt in "the West" since the days of Dawn.
A. What are the "days of Dawn"?
B. What does she mean by "the West"?

She's vague, and when someone is vague, there's room for interpretation.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

That depends on your point of view. It's not if Beleriand exists. It's east of two mountain ranges and the coast. It's east of potentially two kingdoms or realms.

Even Gondorians are called men of the west.

So?

Weird phrasing, especially for the greatest female loremaster. It's like she had a stroke if you are believing she was pointing to Celeborn had come with her.

Let's see the quote again, shall we?

"He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."

When Tolkien first wrote a similar paragraph he was thinking of Galadriel as the handmaid of Melian who had come with her to Beleriand legitimately. But then she abandoned her and went to Lorien and fell in love with Celeborn.

Later, Galadriel became the daughter of Felagund who abandoned Beleriand in early FA.

Later, Galadriel became the sister of Felagund who abandoned Beleriand in later years of FA.

How so?

Galadriel says the Lord of Galadhrim has dwelt in the West since a long time ago. Where is this "west"? It could be anywhere in Westlands. Maybe the next words of Galadriel would clear this up?

Galadriel says she has lived with him years uncounted; BECAUSE she crossed the mountains ere the fall of Nargothrond.

Pay attention that the usage of " ; " is also remarkable.

Now which mountains Galadriel crossed to meet Celeborn ere the fall of Nargothrond?

It's a simple 2 + 2 = 4

Tolkien contradicted himself in FOTR and ROTK (both editions) and RGEO.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Even Gondorians are called men of the west.

Yeah, once Gondor existed. What about when Beleriand existed? One must approach the situation from Galadriel's perspective.

Weird phrasing, especially for the greatest female loremaster.

I don't remember her ever being referred to as a "Loremaster". She's a noblewoman of considerable magical ability. She's learned, and wise but not necessarily a scholar.

It's like she had a stroke if you are believing she was pointing to Celeborn had come with her.

Why? Her statement wasn't exclusionary.

Let's see the quote again, shall we?

"He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."

When Tolkien first wrote a similar paragraph he was thinking of Galadriel as the handmaid of Melian who had come with her to Beleriand legitimately. But then she abandoned her and went to Lorien and fell in love with Celeborn.

Later, Galadriel became the daughter of Felagund who abandoned Beleriand in early FA.

Later, Galadriel became the sister of Felagund who abandoned Beleriand in later years of FA.

How so?

Galadriel says the Lord of Galadhrim has dwelt in the West since a long time ago. Where is this "west"? It could be anywhere in Westlands. Maybe the next words of Galadriel would clear this up?

Galadriel says she has lived with him years uncounted; BECAUSE she crossed the mountains ere the fall of Nargothrond.

That just means that's when they shacked up, not that he didn't also pass over the mountains. Though, you are correct. It's implied they didn't pass over together, as a couple, though it's possible he passed over the mountains at the same time.

Pay attention that the usage of " ; " is also remarkable.

Now which mountains Galadriel crossed to meet Celeborn ere the fall of Nargothrond?

Indeed, which mountains? The Pelori? The Ered Wethrin? The Ered Luin? The Hithaeglir? The Orocarni?

It's a simple 2 + 2 = 4

Tolkien contradicted himself in FOTR and ROTK (both editions) and RGEO.

And when he wrote the Lord of the Rings. A simple fix. It's a handful of lines, not an entire chapter.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Yeah, once Gondor existed. What about when Beleriand existed? One must approach the situation from Galadriel's perspective

So? Beleriand, Eriador, Vales of Anduin, etc etc were called West of Middle-earth. Whereas Rhun and Hildorien etc etc were called Eastlands.

I don't remember her ever being referred to as a "Loremaster". She's a noblewoman of considerable magical ability. She's learned, and wise but not necessarily a scholar

"...a match for both the loremasters and the athletes"

"...and of her she learned great lore and wisdom"

The first quote pretty much explicitly names her as a match for the loremasters.

 

[ZehnWaters]

So? Beleriand, Eriador, Vales of Anduin, etc etc were called West of Middle-earth. Whereas Rhun and Hildorien etc etc were called Eastlands.

Thus Celeborn could have been living in Beleriand.

"...a match for both the loremasters and the athletes"

"...and of her she learned great lore and wisdom"

The first quote pretty much explicitly names her as a match for the loremasters.

Oh, I'd forgotten about these lines. I guess when I think about "learning great lore" I think more education. When I hear "loremaster" I think "scholar". You are correct.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Thus Celeborn could have been living in Beleriand.

How could he live in Beleriand if Galadriel crossed some mountains alone before the fall of Nargothrond and then met him. I have dwelt with him; because I passed over the mountains.

 

[ZehnWaters]

How could he live in Beleriand if Galadriel crossed some mountains alone before the fall of Nargothrond and then met him. I have dwelt with him; because I passed over the mountains.

Maybe he lived (past tense) in Beleriand and then migrated east. Denethor moved west, there's no reason to believe that NO Sindar didn't go back east.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Maybe he lived (past tense) in Beleriand and then migrated east. Denethor moved west, there's no reason to believe that NO Sindar didn't go back east

Yes but he should've done this before the Return of the Noldor. Therefore Galadriel does not meet him in Beleriand and has to cross the mountains alone of all returning Noldor to meet him. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.

Again, this is immediately discarded in the subsequent year. As we see in Appendix B first edition the date of Celeborn crossing the mountains is in Second Age. And in second edition it is said Celeborn was still living west of the mountains in Harlindon. All of these writings are supposed to be written by in-universe loremasters. The writing which is confirmed as the true writing as JRR eventually intended is found in RGEO.

You are taking LOTR far too seriously 'canon'. While in LOTR there are several contradictions. Like Gandalf saying Sauron's nagul have the Nine. But Galadriel saying Sauron himself keeps the Nine. And then in the Letters Tolkien says Sauron took the Nine from the Nazgul and used the Nine himself.

As Christopher and JRR both said these are traditions. You and I are trying to figure out a real version for some reason however. But the difference between me and you is that I'm taking a writing from JRR's own perspective as canon while you are trying to cross-source that with a weird mistake by Frodo or an editorial error by the Gondor scribe.

 

[Halasían]

The character of Galadriel should've never been created. Tolkien made a whole mess out of his myths by creating a nonsense character that he couldn't ever flesh her out into a logical compelling character.

Sez you. I think Galadriel was one of the better, more intriguing characters of Middle Earth. You really have a lot of hatred invested in your pogrom against Galadriel, don't you.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Sez you. I think Galadriel was one of the better, more intriguing characters of Middle Earth. You really have a lot of hatred invested in your pogrom against Galadriel, don't you.

The only way to say that is by ignoring logic. Even my little brother can invent more intriguing character than that ugly lazy lame loser Galadriel.

No wonder why Galadriel is such a illogical character, she's invented by a man who lacked the ability to write interesting female leaders.

Haleth was cool because she was originally a man.

Female rulers of Numenor are all monsters or impotent rulers. Again, because Tolkien could not write female leaders.

 

[Halasían]

The only way to say that is by ignoring logic. Even my little brother can invent more intriguing character than that ugly lazy lame loser Galadriel.

No wonder why Galadriel is such a illogical character, she's invented by a man who lacked the ability to write interesting female leaders.

Haleth was cool because she was originally a man.

Female rulers of Numenor are all monsters or impotent rulers. Again, because Tolkien could not write female leaders.

Again, sez you.
*Yawn* I'm a bit over your anti-Galadriel fetish. Bye.

 

[Endrasil]

The only way to say that is by ignoring logic. Even my little brother can invent more intriguing character than that ugly lazy lame loser Galadriel.

No wonder why Galadriel is such a illogical character, she's invented by a man who lacked the ability to write interesting female leaders.

Haleth was cool because she was originally a man.

Female rulers of Numenor are all monsters or impotent rulers. Again, because Tolkien could not write female leaders.

I believe it may be best to practice our Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) skills in this discussion by striving for Wise Mind and being nonjudgmental. It is okay to point out the inconsistencies, as Christopher Tolkien did, but we should leave out the comparisons, judgments and assumptions.

So everything doesn’t exactly match up, Tolkien was human and therefore inherently imperfect so he deserves some posthumous compassion for that!

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

The only way to say that is by ignoring logic. Even my little brother can invent more intriguing character than that ugly lazy lame loser Galadriel.

No wonder why Galadriel is such a illogical character, she's invented by a man who lacked the ability to write interesting female leaders.

Haleth was cool because she was originally a man.

Female rulers of Numenor are all monsters or impotent rulers. Again, because Tolkien could not write female leaders.

I believe it may be best to practice our Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) skills in this discussion by striving for Wise Mind and being nonjudgmental. It is okay to point out the inconsistencies, as Christopher Tolkien did, but we should leave out the comparisons, judgments and assumptions.

So everything doesn’t exactly match up, Tolkien was human and therefore inherently imperfect so he deserves some posthumous compassion for that!

Even those generation of the latter Fantasy producers, such as Blizzard, still got bunches of illogical bugs in their works just like Medivh, it went without saying about how possibly JRRT, the possibly 1st Fantasy author would got bugs in his works. In addition, JRRT was born in a generation that females were still mostly excluded from powers on all kinds of careers, and obviously he had tried his best to not get left behind.
At last, never mind some brats thought they're as great as JRRT, you know, they're "too fantasy", and most of all, don't break their glass-spirits, or they'll ignore you like ignoring me XD.

 

[Halasían]

I believe it may be best to practice our Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) skills in this discussion by striving for Wise Mind and being nonjudgmental. It is okay to point out the inconsistencies, as Christopher Tolkien did, but we should leave out the comparisons, judgments and assumptions.

True. Spending days upon days in thread upon thread wherever Galadriel is mentioned just to dump on the character is says more about the person than about the character. Seriously, why bother?

So everything doesn’t exactly match up, Tolkien was human and therefore inherently imperfect so he deserves some posthumous compassion for that!

I'm amazed he managed to get as much consistency through the legendarium as he did considering how deep he delved into creating Middle Earth.

never mind some brats thought they're as great as JRRT, you know, they're "too fantasy", and most of all, don't break their glass-spirits, or they'll ignore you like ignoring me XD.

Must be looking into the Mirror of Galadriel 😄
🚽 ⚰️ 🔛 U


As for my opinion of the worst character created by Tolkien, it would be the twin characters Amrod and Amras. They were pretty useless as far as the 1st Age story goes. Basically filler to make the number of sons seven.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Oh, and always keep an eye that they will

Must be looking into the Mirror of Galadriel
😄🚽 ⚰️ 🔛 U
As for my opinion of the worst character created by Tolkien, it would be the twin characters Amrod and Amras. They were pretty useless as far as the 1st Age story goes. Basically filler to make the number of sons seven.

Why not carry it to me on your own?Or is escorting such tiny artifact too hard for a "RANGER", as what really reflects you in it?😄🚽 ⚰️ 🔛 U
P.S. Hoping this might be offensive, yet if someone is really still glass-spirit, I'll still respect the forum rules and delet it.😄🚽 ⚰️ 🔛 U

Back to topic, the Simillraion wasn't a good sample of characters pool, it's advantage was due to a inact lore, yet it still worth readers starting JRRT lore thus.

 

[Halasían]

Oh, and always keep an eye that they will

Why not carry it to me on your own?Or is escorting such tiny artifact too hard for a "RANGER", as what really reflects you in it?😄🚽 ⚰️ 🔛 U
P.S. Hoping this might be offensive, yet if someone is really still glass-spirit, I'll still respect the forum rules and delet it.😄🚽 ⚰️ 🔛 U

Back to topic, the Simillraion wasn't a good sample of characters pool, it's advantage was due to a inact lore, yet it still worth readers starting JRRT lore thus.

Sorry Hisky, that is more comical than offensive, mainly because it doesn't make any sense and I've already wasted too much time on your personal attacks. Better call in an 'airstrike' 'commander'. 😄

Please read the title of this thread. It says "Tolkien's Worst Character", not 'Tolkien's Worst Character that isn't in the Silmarillion.'

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]