Was it really impossible to defeat Morgoth?

[Illuin]

from Bucky
Well, I don't think you can say it is a grey area...

As far as the “grey area”, I was referring to your statement regarding Gothmog having autonomy over Sauron on the battlefield. I have no doubt Gothmog was far superior in hand to hand combat than Sauron (hence my belief Sauron would have been rid of by the hands of Feanor; which is the whole point of the current discussion ); though I don’t think Gothmog would have ever had autonomy over Sauron. As it’s been stated, Sauron wasn’t a soldier that went to battle; he was the visionary Commander in Chief supervising some of Morgoth’s forces; thus he always would have had the authority to bark orders at anyone; even Gothmog; on, or off the battlefield.

from Bucky
In fact, Akallabeth says by the time of Ar-Pharazon, he had become 'the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth.'

After of course, heeding Sauron’s council; though he wasn't exactly noble and principled prior to that.

"Thus Ar-Pharazon, King of the Land of the Star, grew to the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth, though in truth Sauron ruled all from behind the throne.”

 

[Bucky]

As far as the “grey area”, I was referring to your statement regarding Gothmog having autonomy over Sauron on the battlefield.

As it’s been stated, Sauron wasn’t a soldier that went to battle; he was the visionary Commander in Chief supervising some of Morgoth’s forces; thus he always would have had the authority to bark orders at anyone; even Gothmog; on, or off the battlefield.

Well, while I agree with these 2 statements, there seems to be a bit a problem in the middle of the second one.
You state that Sauron wasn't a soldier that went to battle, yet you say he could've barked orders at Gothmog on or off the battlefield. If not going to battle, how could Sauron be there to bark orders at Gothmog?


Personally, I agree that Sauron probably wasn't on the battlefield as a commander under Morgoth in the First Age. He seemed more of a commander of a fortress & 'Governor' that Morgoth set up once he conquered land, much as he had governed Angband while Morgoth was in Utumno.


Kinda the way Eisenhower was Patton's commanding officer in WWII, yet never saw one bit of on field action, ya know?

When the Battle of Sudden Flame took place, Glaurung & his brood, with Balrogs in his train, led the way, no mention of Sauron. Yet Sauron, not Glaurung or Gothmog, gets the spoils & is set up as vassal in the newly conquered Tower of Finrod, Minas Tirith.
Even when Dorthonian is taken over in the next few years, we see 'Sauron's Hunters' doing the work, not Sauron.

It is only after Sauron loses the Tower to Luthien that Glarung sets up as a 'king' in Nargothrond. Of course, this is a totally different situation too. Glaurung has just conquered one kingdom & hasn't sent North to be replaced, he's also there for the purpose of destroying the people of Haleth & accomplishing his Master's destruction of the Children/family of Hurin.
So, it's hard to conclude Sauron has fallen out of favor with Morgoth, although it is possible.

Finally, on Sauron's fighting/battlefield capabilities, we do know that in the Second Age, he lead his forces in battle, both when conquering Eriador (that's been mentioned here recently I recall). & at the Seige of Barad-Dur, although somewhat reluctantly as it says somewhere (couldn't find it) that 'finally the seige became so straight that Sauron himself came forth'.

Now, one can assume the reason that Sauron lead the army into Eriador was because: Who else would? No Balrogs, Dragons or 'Super-Orcs' (lesser spirit embodied orc captains like the First Age) & the Nazgul had not appeared yet. Plus, Sauron wanted those Rings of Power Celebrimbor had. Would he trust a mere orc in command to get them?
No way.....

Therefore, we can deduce that for the only time in history Sauron went willingly to war.

Even in the breaking of Utumno, 'Sauron' they (the Valar) did not find'.....

Why? because he must've run away.

 

[Inderjit S]

Well, I don’t think Morgoth believed he was the original god. He did desire the Imperishable Flame, and maybe he believed that if he found it he could be as Eru, but I’m quite certain he had not forgotten Eru and his power. Even if he believed The Silmarils were some kind of quasi Imperishable Flame, I’m sure he was still keen enough to realize that it wasn’t quite the same thing. Morgoth was simply a very powerful spoiled brat who believed he was so above all of the other Ainur, that Arda was “owed him”; and when he realized that wasn’t happening, he threw a temper-tantrum that lasted for thousands of years.

I'm not so sure; I think Morgoth had completely lost the plot, so to speak, I mean he was teetering on the edge from the day he was created, he objected to the existence of the world-he was a complete and utter nihilist, THE nihilist, and he was completley misguided-he prob. believed everything he said in that little speech to Hurin. That is my reading of his character, from Myths Transformed.

In fact, Akallabeth says by the time of Ar-Pharazon, he had become 'the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth.'
08-23-2008 05:08 PM

Of course; though I think Tolkien states somewhere that the Last Alliance was as powerful as Ar-Pharazon's fleet. I do think that Sauron made a mistake here; he should have attacked Middle-Earth, and THEN attacked Valinor. But still, the Numenoreans had thousands of uninterrupted years of mating to boost their numbers-the Noldor, with the help of the Sindar, Dwarves, Easterlings and Edain, frequently wiped the floor with Morgoth's armies, even though they were heavily outnumbered and had to fight more Maia than the Numenoreans; man-for-man I think the Noldor would have wiped the floor with the Numenoreans, esp. if Finwe's brood actually stuck together. I also think that the combination of the Noldor+Sindar+Dwarves+Edain, with all their generals in place, would have beaten the Numenorean fleet. But all of this is hypothetical, of course.

Finally, on Sauron's fighting/battlefield capabilities, we do know that in the Second Age, he lead his forces in battle, both when conquering Eriador (that's been mentioned here recently I recall). & at the Seige of Barad-Dur, although somewhat reluctantly as it says somewhere (couldn't find it) that 'finally the seige became so straight that Sauron himself came forth'.

And gets driven back by Celeborn hehe.

 

[Bucky]

man-for-man I think the Noldor would have wiped the floor with the Numenoreans, esp. if Finwe's brood actually stuck together. I also think that the combination of the Noldor+Sindar+Dwarves+Edain, with all their generals in place, would have beaten the Numenorean fleet. But all of this is hypothetical, of course.

Well, I have to agree.
It must be taken into consideration that:

A. To be a 'Tyrant', you must rule absolutely & the Noldor & Company could not do that with Morgoth ruling at the same time. Only Morgoth, Sauron in the East & the Numenoreans ever did that.

B. The 'Alliance Against Morgoth' was constantly being wittled down by battle & division too.

C. The Numenoreans in the 'Sauron era' did indeed accumulate great power, both in Numenor & Middle-earth. Attacking Middle-earth first wasn't needed as they ruled there anyhow.

 

[Inderjit S]

The Numenoreans in the 'Sauron era' did indeed accumulate great power, both in Numenor & Middle-earth. Attacking Middle-earth first wasn't needed as they ruled there anyhow.

Perhaps, but is certainly would have solved the 'Gil-Galad' problem, were Sauron to return to Middle-Earth.

 

[Bucky]

Perhaps, but is certainly would have solved the 'Gil-Galad' problem, were Sauron to return to Middle-Earth.

True....

I wonder how that would've flown with Ar-Pharazon?
Of course, Sauron was in Numenor as captive/Counselor for, what 90 years?

Only 58!

(How time flies when you're having fun)

So, of course, from Sauron's perspective, he hates Gil-Galad & G-G has been his main obstruction to ruling Middle-earth since G-G discovered 'A servant of Morgoth is stirring' back in SA 883. Yet, despite this, Sauron knows that destroying Gil-Galad will bring him no closer to getting rid of the Numenoreans, who he was forced to bow down to in disgrace at Umbar when his own servants deserted him.
So convincing Ar-Pharazon to attack Gil-Galad, while probably not being that hard, considering the dislike of the 'King's Men' for the Eldar, will actually be detrimental to building up a force strong enough to convince the king of Numenor he can sucessfully wage war on the Valar.

 

[Illuin]

by Inderjit S
I'm not so sure; I think Morgoth had completely lost the plot, so to speak, I mean he was teetering on the edge from the day he was created, he objected to the existence of the world-he was a complete and utter nihilist, THE nihilist, and he was completley misguided-he prob. believed everything he said in that little speech to Hurin. That is my reading of his character, from Myths Transformed.

Maybe; though deeming himself “Master of the Fate of Arda” and his actually believing he is “the god” of gods aren’t quite the same. Though in Myths it does say:

“Or he [Morgoth] became so far advanced in lying that he lied even to himself” [Insertion mine]

It’s entirely possible he truly believed his own lies . But another quote says:

“Morgoth’s staying ‘at home’ has, as described above, quite a different reason: his fear of being killed or even hurt”

If he truly believed he was the original god, why was he such a chicken? I think the only fear “god” would have is nobody caring about him; or acknowledging him; not a fear of being physically hurt or killed.

 

[Burzum]

So convincing Ar-Pharazon to attack Gil-Galad, while probably not being that hard, considering the dislike of the 'King's Men' for the Eldar, will actually be detrimental to building up a force strong enough to convince the king of Numenor he can sucessfully wage war on the Valar.

I doubt it; Ar-Pharazon would have waged war even if his fleet wasn't as great, due to the immense fear of death. Besides, I don't think destroying Gil-galad would have cost that much for Numenor.

On some other issues: why do you guys consider Feanor to be superior to Fingolfin in terms of arms? The Simarillion explicitly states that Fingolfin was better at combat, and even though Feanor was greatly enraged, Fingolfin was also capable of being furious (remember, when he rode to Angband he was so great that he resembled Orome himself). Their strengths are not directly comparable, since there is no account of how well Fingolfin did in fighting Balrogs (or how well Feanor did in dueling Morgoth), but I think we should go with what is explicitly stated (that Fingolfin was the mgihtiest in arms).

But of course, I agree that Feanor could have easily broken Sauron. This is proved by a simple inequality: Feanor > Ecthelion = Gothmog > Sauron. But then again, I highly doubt that Sauron would have stood in the way of Feanor. It's simply not Sauron's way; he did duel Elendil and Gil-galad in the Second Age but this time he isn't the final boss. It's more likely that he would have just fled or aided his master in other, more cerebral ways while letting Feanor challenge Morgoth directly.

As for Sauron vs. Gothmog... I agree that Sauron was a moe behind-the-scenes manipulator, while Gothmog was a battlefield captain and a warrior. My view, though, is that Gothmog probably didn't take any orders from Sauron. I see their relationship as more horizontal than vertical; i.e.

Melkor
l l l
Sauron Gothmog ( Glaurung )


rather than


Melkor
l
Sauron
l
Gothmog
l
....


So, they all took orders directly from Melkor, but Sauron just technically ranked higher than all others.

To address the original topic: I think it was technically possible, but practically impossible. What I mean is that there wasn't an intrisically insurmountable wall that prevented the Elves from overthrwoing Morgoth in any way (unlike, say, if they were assailing Eru himself). Fingolfin and Thorondor has proven that Melkor can be wounded (and that the wounds are not easily, if in any way, healed), and another inequality comes into play as well: a number of Balrogs > Ungoliant > Morgoth (and we know that the strongest of the Elves could slay Balrogs). How many Balrogs were present, I do not know, and it could be that Morgoth was actually damn strong if we take the "thousand-Balrogs" hypothesis, but this, combined with the fact that he was wounded by Fingolfin and Thorondor, suggests that Morgoth wasn't all that great in physical strength. It seems logical to conclude that with sufficient force (say, a thousand soldiers plus a number of champions - Feanor, Fingolfin, Glorfindel, Ecthelion, etc.), Melkor himself could have been taken under control in some way (imprisonment, destroying the physical body, sending him to Valinor, etc.).

However, that is when dealing exclusively with Morgoth himself. He has a lot of minions - orcs, trolls, wolves, Balrogs, and above all, dragons. And he dwells within Angband, which provides a very strong home ground advantage. The Noldor could at best form a siege, because the depths of Angband isn't exactly a good place to wage a war on. Meanwhile, Morgoth could build new armies within his fortress. Also, it appears that he builds them more quickly than the Elves, Men, and Dwarves rebuild their, and Morgoth makes quicker technological advancements (what did the Eldar do when Morgoth was breeding dragons?). If the war ensues with each battle taking away the strength from both, Morgoth, whose army rebuilds more quickly, will eventually have the upper hand. Besides, I don't think the Elves, even with the fire-resistant Dwarves, could stand the dragon fleet that Morgoth releases during the War of Wrath.

 

[Goldilocks Gamgee]

I feel like this thread could use some reviving.

This could be an interesting discussion topic.

 

[Lómelindë Lindórië]

I feel that Melkor was indeed the strongest of the Valar; had he not fallen, he would have definitely remained as one of the Aratar. Although whether it would be impossible to take him down depends on many factors...of which I won't go into.

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

Perhaps it was possible to defeat Morgoth with united forces. However, it was difficult for the elves to reach an agreement. Mongol invasion of Rus' was caused by similar reasons. Russian forces weren't united because of feudal fragmentation. The princes joined together thanks to Dmitry Donskoy. That's why the Battle of Kulikovo was successful and later the country was liberated.
P. S. I'm trying to give a historical example, not a political one.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Perhaps it was possible to defeat Morgoth with united forces. However, it was difficult for the elves to reach an agreement. Mongol invasion of Rus' was caused by similar reasons. Russian forces weren't united because of feudal fragmentation. The princes joined together thanks to Dmitry Donskoy. That's why the Battle of Kulikovo was successful and later the country was liberated.
P. S. I'm trying to give a historical example, not a political one.

My dear, there're also bunches of historical cases as horribly-feudal defeated well-centralized empires, such as Teutonburg Forest, and don't forget Afghanistan's cases against multiple superpowers. XD
Yes, wars are really the extension of politics according to Clausewitz, but don't forget Sun Tzu said politicians shouldn't interrupt the frontal commanders. I suppose we should not only focus political, but also military and so on, such as command system(yeah, such as no idea where're the palantirs doing during the unnumbered tears.)

 

[Melkor]

Elves were capable of destroying Melkor's armies. Problem is how to break through the gates of Angband. And then what? Angband is vast mostly underground fortress with many corridors, mines and dungeons. Try to lead the army through these corridors and not get scattered and lost (without food and water). And fighting here wouldn't be easy too.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

...underground fortress with many corridors, mines and dungeons....

If that's so, the almost only advantage of Melkor armed forces-superior quantity of personnel and ammunition would be only decoration. Don't forget, in close-quarter combat, single personnel combat quality played a much heavier role, all these maze-like fortification would provide nothing but cover for Melkor's forces escape. Just take a look at each street skirmish during USA-middle east military operation. In addition, Melkor's personnel mostly sucked in morale education, thus they wouldn't make Angaband a Stalingrad.