Was the light from the Trees derived from the Flame Imperishable?

[hamstar]

Evidence: The Lamps seem to be directly responsible for the Spring of Arda, whereby flora and fauna quantity and diversity (if I've understood this correctly) appeared throughout Arda. That directly suggests light from the lamps had a creation power, or at least a very strong growing + mutagenic effect. Could anything else besides the Flame Imperishable have an effect like this?

The lamp's light appears to have been gathered up from a misty glowing haze that existed upon the world after its creation, but I am unclear on the nature of this mist. Unless the world's creation involved a different kind of power/means than the Flame, that would suggest the mist is maybe some byproduct or leftover of the Flame. Therefore, it appears the Flame can be used also to shape physical reality, as well as give life (spirit?) to living things. In short, it is a literal concept of general power over all things, and by association, so are all things of 'light' (Lamps/Trees, Silmarils, high elves, etc.).

Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

I'll give this a try based on my own thoughts:

The Flame Imperishable was the Secret Fire that kindled all life - the fëar of all were said to be created from it. The Lamps held the Light of Varda, who in turn holds the Light of Ilúvatar in her face. The Two Trees were created by Yavanna, and the Silmarils were made from them, which were then hallowed by Varda - therefore, it makes sense that the Light of the Two Trees held Varda's light, and therefore the Light of Ilúvatar.

Since Ilúvatar is the source of the Flame Imperishable, it makes sense that this Flame would have present in all things living, and perhaps even in the fallen fëar of those who dwell in the Halls of Mandos.

The hröa of the Eruhini were shaped from the physical substances of Arda, but could the Flame itself shape this physical substance that Arda was made from? It seems unlikely that anything else would have possessed such power.

 

[hamstar]

I'll give this a try based on my own thoughts:

The Flame Imperishable was the Secret Fire that kindled all life - the fëar of all were said to be created from it. The Lamps held the Light of Varda, who in turn holds the Light of Ilúvatar in her face. The Two Trees were created by Yavanna, and the Silmarils were made from them, which were then hallowed by Varda - therefore, it makes sense that the Light of the Two Trees held Varda's light, and therefore the Light of Ilúvatar.

Since Ilúvatar is the source of the Flame Imperishable, it makes sense that this Flame would have present in all things living, and perhaps even in the fallen fëar of those who dwell in the Halls of Mandos.

The hröa of the Eruhini were shaped from the physical substances of Arda, but could the Flame itself shape this physical substance that Arda was made from? It seems unlikely that anything else would have possessed such power.

Unless the physical action of the gods were separate from use of the Flame, Arda's creation itself could be maybe considered putting essence ("fëa"?) into the universe (Eä) itself. Maybe at that scale, concepts like fëa and hröa begin to overlap in nature, as any form ("hröa") given to the universe would only define what it contains; the very concept of essence.

Otherwise, I have no idea what that glow-y mist is.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

Otherwise, I have no idea what that glowy mist is.

I don't think I'd know either...

 

[ZehnWaters]

Ostensibly the Flame Imperishable was set in Arda by Ilúvatar and thus likely resides throughout all creation just as Melkor's marring exists throughout all creation. To what degree, for each, is impossible to say. The Lamps/Two Trees/Light in general may have held more than normal, just as gold held a disproportionate amount of Melkor's corruption.

It's an interesting theory and seems to have some amount of evidence, though none can say for sure.

 

[Eljorahir]

Here are a few phrases/sentences from The Silmarillion. I think the text supports the Theory in the title of this thread very well.

Ainulindale, The Music of the Ainur
…I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable…

Valaquenta
…the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World…

Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
Feanor…pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable.

Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Iluvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Feanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor…

Therefore even in the darkness of the deepest treasury the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gave it back in hues more marvelous than before.

 

[hamstar]

One thing that I want to confirm: Could Eru himself (or else Varda, but with Eru's help) simply have introduced bio-diversity during the Spring of Arda, whereby the Lamps were simply used to make it grow (akin to regular garden light sources)? Or did his (direct) participation in creation events basically come to an end by then (and thus the direct use of his Flame)?

 

[Eljorahir]

One thing that I want to confirm: Could Eru himself (or else Varda, but with Eru's help) simply have introduced bio-diversity during the Spring of Arda, whereby the Lamps were simply used to make it grow (akin to regular garden light sources)? Or did his (direct) participation in creation events basically come to an end by then (and thus the direct use of his Flame)?

I'm finding these to be difficult questions to answer with certainty. So, I can only give my impressions. I'll be interested to hear any other views.

My impression of Eru is that after the Great Music and setting the initial conditions he just sat back and watched. (With an occasional exception: granting life to dwarves and reshaping the World after Ar-Pharazon's ill-advised antics.)

My impression is that the diversity of animal and plant life comes from the blending of the music of all the Ainur (although Yavanna's music is of special importance in the creation of plants and animals).

Elves and Men, however, are strictly "the Children of Iluvatar". Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think that Elves and Men come from Iluvatar alone, and in their making the Ainur had no part.

 

[hamstar]

My impression is that the diversity of animal and plant life comes from the blending of the music of all the Ainur (although Yavanna's music is of special importance in the creation of plants and animals).

So were these organisms conceptualized as ideas via. Music, and then manifested/given life during the Spring? Or was the Music more like a pre-creation phase where, like the dwarves (but unlike the Children of Illuvatar?), a minimal seed quantity of each organism was made in advance, asleep somewhere (hidden?) in Arda, and then simply 'awakened' when the time was right?

In the former case, the Lamps' light must indeed have managed to give Spring creatures life, as if the Flame itself. That begs a follow-up question: Could the dwarves have been given life similarly, had Aulë been aware of the nature of the Flame in advance?

In the latter case, there is no way to tell from the Spring and the Lamps alone whether its light pertains directly to the Flame, but other aforementioned points still seem to indicate the overlap.

 

[Eljorahir]

So were these organisms conceptualized as ideas via. Music, and then manifested/given life during the Spring? Or was the Music more like a pre-creation phase where, like the dwarves (but unlike the Children of Iluvatar?), a minimal seed quantity of each organism was made in advance, asleep somewhere (hidden?) in Arda, and then simply 'awakened' when the time was right?

It does not seem like the "seeds of life" were planted much in advance of the creation of the lamps.

In the chapter “Of The Beginning of Days” we get this sequence:
_____________________________
‘…Melkor fled…and forsook Arda…’
‘In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna planted at last the seeds that she had long devised.’
‘…Aule…wrought two mighty lamps…’
‘Then the seeds began swiftly to sprout…’
‘And beasts came forth…’
‘As yet no flower had bloomed nor any bird had sung, for these things waited still their time in the bosom of Yavanna; but wealth there was of her imagining…’
_____________________________
So, I think the first sentence of yours matches the text the closest:
(turning your question into a statement):
These organisms were conceptualized as ideas via. Music, and then manifested/given life during the Spring.

These are very interesting questions.

 

[hamstar]

‘As yet no flower had bloomed nor any bird had sung, for these things waited still their time in the bosom of Yavanna; but wealth there was of her imagining…’

That almost does sound a bit like how the pre-made dwarves worked, but instead of being stored in boxes deep underground, Yavanna herself carries them. Unless Yavanna is a giantess, or else she uses the word 'bosom' very loosely, I assume this to be an abstract concept of storage. That could still mean most fauna exist as just 'ideas', but it may mean something more literal. Maybe this a reverse concept of creation, whereby spirits (fëa) are made first (maybe as the blueprints of each creature?), and then their physical forms (hröa) are instantiated into the world, when the time is right. One assumes if Sauron, a high level maiar, can readily 'store' his significant spirit inside a tiny artifact for most an age, keeping a repository of assorted minor critter spirits on hand for a primordial goddess may not be a stretch.

I suppose that could mean the Flame was allocated in advance of the Spring, which once more sets the initial argument for this theory back to square one.

 

[Eljorahir]

Maybe this a reverse concept of creation, whereby spirits (fëa) are made first (maybe as the blueprints of each creature?

I'm not an expert on "fea", only having been introduced to the word on this forum. However, with a little google searching I'm finding that in Tolkien's world animals don't have spirits/souls/fea. Fea is the soul of The Children of Iluvatar. Is this contrary to your understanding?

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I'm finding that in Tolkien's world animals don't have spirits/souls/fea. Fea is the soul of The Children of Iluvatar.

Yes. That is right.


fëa, fëar) is the Quenya word for "soul, indwelling spirit of an incarnate being". The union of fea and hroa was the essential characteristic of the Incarnates. The fëar were sent into Ea directly by Iluvatar; and unlike the hröa, they are indestructible and unable to be dominated by any force within Eä, unless they give consent. The Sindarin equivalent is fae.

The word fëar is only used in reference to souls whose natural state is to be incarnated; those spirits that do not require a hröa in order to be complete are called ealar ("beings").

Fëar were sent to inhabit the Ents. Unbodied fëar, could be controlled by necromancy in all theoretical sense.

 

[hamstar]

I'm not an expert on "fea", only having been introduced to the word on this forum. However, with a little google searching I'm finding that in Tolkien's world animals don't have spirits/souls/fea. Fea is the soul of The Children of Iluvatar. Is this contrary to your understanding?

Yes. I might have misunderstood.

This does beg the question of why Aulë's dwarves weren't able to move at all until Eru gave them the flame, though. Edit: To clarify, if Aulë used means comparable to Yavanna's for making his own life forms, shouldn't they have behaved at least as if like feral beasts?