Was there tectonic activity in Middle Earth post-Melkor's fall?

[Antanas]

Fellow humans.

I was wondering if anyone has calculated the timeline of Middle Earth to Earth transformation? Is there even a current consensus on whether Tolkien meant that Middle Earth became earth, as I remember reading in a few places?

This is the necessary pretense to be followed by my actual question, be the first one correct.
What actually happened to Belerian afterwards the fall of Melkor and the flooding? This is, of course, a question perhaps of mere speculation, albeit I think that many of us are thinking about it. The thing is, though, so that I must approach it pragmatically. As to my knowledge there was tectonic activity in middle earth, correct? But when and where did this start... More than this I dare not ask at the moment as I await the communities reply.

All hell king Telcontar and king Éomer
Antanas

 

[Olorgando]

As to my knowledge there was tectonic activity in middle earth, correct?

"Plate tectonics came to be generally accepted by geoscientists after seafloor spreading was validated in the mid-to-late 1960s." (Wikipedia)
That would 10 or more years after publication of LotR, and the concept was probably only known to the scientific specialists for a good deal longer.
There had earlier been a concept of "continental drift", one version of which had been suggested by German scientist Alfred Wegener in 1912 (there had been earlier variants), but it lacked essential "pieces of the jigsaw puzzle" to become accepted. When these were later found, the concept was expanded and refined into plate tectonics.

So if the question were to be posed if JRRT could have known about plate tectonics, the answer is a clear no. Not that the concept would have helped him much, as the average movement of tectonic plates is frequently compared to the speed that nails (and perhaps hair) grow. You may be familiar with the term "glacial" being used to describe very slow movement, or change, or whatever; well, glaciers are race horses compared to tectonic plates. Even in the vastly expanded time frames that JRRT was toying with in later, post-LotR writing, as documented in the 2021 book "The Nature of Middle-earth" edited by Carl F. Hostetter, going into tens of thousand of years but still staying well below 100,000 years, is way too short to explain the cataclysms described by JRRT. And since I mentioned glaciers, expanding Middle-earth' history back tens of thousands of years just lands us in the glaciation periods of more recent prehistory, the last one having ended about 10,000 years ago.

 

[Antanas]

Thank you, wanderer.

This is a fair answer to my questions. May the light of Aman shine upon you.

 

[Olorgando]

Thank you, wanderer.
This is a fair answer to my questions. May the light of Aman shine upon you.

My point mostly was that pressing JRRT's Middle-earth from a scientific viewpoint (something that is always a work in progress) doesn't help much.

I'm currently re-reading "The Shaping of Middle-earth", volume 4 of Christopher Tolkien's "The History of Middle-earth" series. Umyes, there are tectonic forces at work in this early-1930's writing: Aulë, Tulkas, Morgoth (here still called Melko, without the final R), other Valar and perhaps Maiar. It's very much the mythological part of JRRT's writing (he preferred the term "legendarium" for the work as a whole).

Think of Sauron's apparent ability to influence Mount Doom in LotR. It starts just when he's preparing his attack on Gondor, the "clouds" spread north and south to cover a very wide swath, and drift for hundreds of miles westwards. I'd like to know what a professional volcanologist has to say about that scenario! 🤔 Just from what I've read about the eruptions of Mount St. Helens (1980), Pinatubo in the Philippines (1991), Krakatoa in Indonesia (1883), and the hugely more massive blast of 1815 of Tambora in Indonesia - more massive than the other three combined by some margin - there would not have been much left of Mt. Doom after such a blast. And the ash blown up into the atmosphere doesn't behave like water vapor clouds: it's too heavy, and "rains" down fairly quickly, unless blasted very high into the stratosphere. Much of Mordor, especially the Plateau of Gorgoroth in its north-western part, would have been covered quite deeply in volcanic ejecta (which would have wiped out any troops Sauron had stationed there), making it much more difficult for Frodo and Sam to get to Mount Doom - or the pile or rubble left of it. The Cracks of Doom might have been inaccessibly buried under huge layers of this pile ... 🤯

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Look up Doggerland.
It can be interesting to compare it to a Middle-earth map with Beleriand.

 

[Ent]

Fellow humans.

OK. No Ainur, Valar, Maiar, Elves, Dwarves, Cats, or others (including Ents) need (can) respond to this one.
On behalf of all, Ent lodges a formal Discrimination complaint. 😁

(Minor correction: some say there is a very distinct connection between the Ainur, Maiar, Elves and Men particularly due to their cross-breeding. They are far more similar than they are dissimilar. And of course Hobbits are of the Men so naturally are included. So perhaps Ainur, Maiar and Elves are not considered excluded here. The OPer can advise.)

 

[Olorgando]

Look up Doggerland.
It can be interesting to compare it to a Middle-earth map with Beleriand.

I've seen at least one documentary on it. But there is one "wee" detail that ruins the picture: the extent to which Scandinavia, northern Germany, and most of the British Isles were covered by gigantic glaciers. Helcaraxë sure had pushed its way a good deal south. But that's "Silmarillion" stuff they can't use for RoP ...

As I'm still re-reading "The Shaping of Middle-earth", I remember that JRRT, in some of the writing of this period (late '20's to early '30's) described what was left of Beleriand after the second defeat of Morgoth as including some larger islands. Christopher Tolkien himself speculated that his father may have toyed with the idea that these were the British Isles, considering the names used. Apparently this was discarded later.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

Fellow humans.

I was wondering if anyone has calculated the timeline of Middle Earth to Earth transformation? Is there even a current consensus on whether Tolkien meant that Middle Earth became earth, as I remember reading in a few places?

This is the necessary pretense to be followed by my actual question, be the first one correct.
What actually happened to Belerian afterwards the fall of Melkor and the flooding? This is, of course, a question perhaps of mere speculation, albeit I think that many of us are thinking about it. The thing is, though, so that I must approach it pragmatically. As to my knowledge there was tectonic activity in middle earth, correct? But when and where did this start... More than this I dare not ask at the moment as I await the communities reply.

All hell king Telcontar and king Éomer
Antanas​

I read somewhere that the 21st century would apparently correlate to the Seventh Age, if Tolkien's timeline were extended until now.

Furthermore, Beleriand and its sinking is quite similar to the sinking of Lemuria/Atlantis. Atlantis and Lemuria presumably fought, since Atlantis was highly advanced in its technology and desired to gain more control (similar to Ar-Pharazon and the fallen Numenoreans). Lemuria held an opposing worldview; it desired peace and was against Atlantis' dominative demands. Eventually, both of these realms fell - Lemuria sunk under the sea (parallel to Beleriand), whilst Atlantis supposedly blew itself up, its technological advances having led to its own bane and eventuall downfall.​

 

[Olorgando]

Furthermore, Beleriand and its sinking is quite similar to the sinking of Lemuria/Atlantis. Atlantis and Lemuria presumably fought, since Atlantis was highly advanced in its technology and desired to gain more control (similar to Ar-Pharazon and the fallen Numenoreans). Lemuria held an opposing worldview; it desired peace and was against Atlantis' dominative demands. Eventually, both of these realms fell - Lemuria sunk under the sea (parallel to Beleriand), whilst Atlantis supposedly blew itself up, its technological advances having led to its own bane and eventuall downfall.​

Is Lemuria mentioned in Plato's works "Timaeus" and (the incomplete) "Critias"? Plato never got around to the planned third part "Hermocrates". While I've not read a translation of these two works of Plato's as a whole, I've read extensive quotes from them in other books (about archaeology). I don't recall any mention of Lemuria, nor of the highly advanced technology of Atlantis. Seems it was quite run-of-the-mill for the Bronze Age.

 

[Elthir]

(. . .) Christopher Tolkien himself speculated that his father may have toyed with the idea that these were the British Isles, considering the names used. Apparently this was discarded later.

Possibly oddly, not only were these Western Isles and the "Land of Leithien" -- appearing
in the "1937 Quenta Silmarillion" conclusion [section 28] -- not revised (which could be explained by JRRT simply skipping over this section), but Tolkien did revise (c. 1958 - 1960) section 26:

"In those days there was a great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea, and especially upon the great isles which, in the disruption of the northern world, were fashioned of ancient Beleriand."

Section 26 "and especially upon the great isles" revised to "and upon the great isles"

So one can hardly say Tolkien skipped this sentence! What were these great isles according to JRRT in c. 1958 - 1960? In any case, Christopher Tolkien warns that these later nigglings should not necessarily be taken as his father doing a "final" or complete revision . . .

. . . so I heed that warning

Anywho, my view continues to be that JRRT abandoned Tol Fuin and Tol Himring (Himling to some) -- although I know many folk seem to disagree with me here, especially given the maps in later editions of The Lord of the Rings -- and that Tolkien rather left the reader with the legend of Tol Morwen.

🐾

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Furthermore, Beleriand and its sinking is quite similar to the sinking of Lemuria/Atlantis. Atlantis and Lemuria presumably fought, since Atlantis was highly advanced in its technology and desired to gain more control (similar to Ar-Pharazon and the fallen Numenoreans).

I always felt Numenor was more akin to Atlantis than Beleriand, not to start an argument.

 

[Starbrow]

I always felt Numenor was more akin to Atlantis than Beleriand, not to start an argument.

That was my impression, too. But I'm not the scholar others here are.

 

[Elthir]

Yep, Numenor was JRRT's Atlantis-haunting, so to speak.

Though Beleriand did go . . . down.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

He called Numenor "my Atlantis myth".

Lemuria was proposed in the 19th century, but as a land bridge in the Indian Ocean.

And welcome to the forum, Antanas! 🙂 Here's hoping you'll stick around -- lots more to find here.