Were Men treated fairly by being left alone by the Valar?

[Celebthôl]

Were Men treated fairly by being left alone by the Valar?

I think they were, and if it was the other way around then the Elves would not have coped (sp) i dont think, as Men were given the gift of being able to "shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world" (as Ilúvatar put it), therefore they could go against all that the Valar wished etc, though for everything else on Arda it was impossible. Kinda answered my own question here oh well, thoughts please...

 

[Eriol]

I used to think like you. Then I had to defend the other side of the question in a debate. Now I am in doubt.

My position now would be something like this: The Valar were unfair, but Men have nothing to complain. Ultimate equivalence (though not equality) between the children of Ilúvatar was granted by Ilúvatar himself.

 

[Gothmog]

As for Men being left alone by the Valar, this is not a case of it being fair or not. Quite simply it could not be any other way. Men were far too great a matter for the Valar to deal with. The only power great enough was Eru himself.

When Men first awakened it was Eru who spoke directly to them. It was Eru who showed them the path to learning and wisdom. Since Eru left the Elves to be found and taught by the Valar yet spoke directly with Men from the moment they awoke it is clear that the Valar were to leave Men well alone.

So since Ilúvatar wanted it that way then yes Men were treated fairly.

 

[Niniel]

Hmm... maybe you should read the debate in the Guild of Outcasts that covers about exactly the same topic.

 

[YayGollum]

Right. The guild of Outcasts won that debate. We decided that everything was nice and achingly fair. Totally different situations for different races, but still fair. Looks like you people agree. oh well.

 

[Eriol]

2.5 x 1.5 against is a win, Yay?

I'd like a debate that proved that .

 

[YayGollum]

Okay, I just looked at the poll and it looks like the Outcasts have four votes, your team thing has three, and there's one that said it was a draw. Looks like we won. Or am I just crazy?

 

[Arvedui]

Forgetting about the we won! part of this thread for a moment, and return to the topic:

Doesn't it say on one of the HoME-books, that Ilúvatar told Manwë that they had not done what they were told to do, especially regarding Middle-earth?
I think this is written somewhere among in Morgoth's Ring, but I am unable to find it at the moment, which almost drives me insane!!!

 

[Eriol]

I also remember that, Arvedui. Keeping in mind that I only read Morgoth's Ring once , I think it is somewhere in the Statute of Míriel part.

Eru says that the Valar lacked estel by fencing themselves in Valinor, or something like that.

Hazy, hazy memory... but I don't think it is related to men, specifically - rather to the withdrawal of the Valar.

 

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Eriol
Hazy, hazy memory... but I don't think it is related to men, specifically - rather to the withdrawal of the Valar.

Which IMO is the same.
If they withdrew from Middle-earth, they wouldn't be there to aid Men. It's as simple as that. I think...

 

[Eriol]

Browsing Morgoth's Ring at lunch, I found this (page 138), a note from CT:

Beside this paragraph (and evidently arising from the words "it was not revealed to Manwë where the beginning of Men should be") my father noted on the typescript that Manwë told the other Valar that he had been visited by the mind of Eru, and warned that Men might not be taken living from Middle-Earth.

Interesting, eh?

I'm still searching for that quote about lack of estel.

EDIT: I found it! It is on the "Converse between Manwë and Eru", the last appendix to the Athrabeth. I won't post quotes because I'm in a hurry, but it is there, Arvedui .