Were there any "eternal languages" in Middle Earth?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

I, obviously, don't mean "eternal" such as we'd still be using now, in, what was it, the Seventh Age (though I thought Melkor was only set to be trapped for four ages before Dagor Dagorlath, but I'd heard, from other reports, that Tolkien said we're in sixth or seventh age now.)

Still, could one have used the same Elvish language in the age of the lamps or the trees and still be understood by most third or, what remained of them, fourth age elves in Middle Earth?
Was there the same language of men used by Beren in Beleriand, Elros in Numenor, Isildur in united Gondor, Aragorn in Third Age Arnor, and perhaps Barliamen Butterbur's grandson in the Fourth Age (assuming he had a grandson) in Bree?

Would Feanor, Gilgalad, Celeborn, and Legolas all be using the same language?

I know that there are at least two langauges in Middle Earth, for the Riders of Rohan only took a bit more kindly than usual to Aragorn because he knew their speech, as they said that, with times being dark such as they are, they didn't bother with foreigners in their land who didn't evne know thier language.

And there appears to have been at least two languages of Elvish. One that was Elvish and one that was "Black Speech" (the one that was on the Ring, but, as Gandalf said, was Elvish) that was created (or twisted) by Sauron, or perhaps even Morgoth, to be its own dialect (albeit one that Elrond apparently knew and was not happy to hear Gandalf utter in Rivendale.)

Also, did Hobbits have the same language? Did the Hobbits of the Shire speak the same language as those in Bree or even that of the Stoorish Hobbits of the time of Gollum's Youth?

I do think, now that I think of it, that Entish, other than expanding due to time getting longer and words getting longer, was essentially the same. The Ents seem more a relic of the First Age than even the Elves!

And what of the Dwarves? Could Durin and Balin, assuming they were able to meet, be able to understand each other or would the old dwarven language of the first or second age be vastly different from the Misty Mountains or even Iron Mountains Dwarves?


Now that I think of it, it did seem that some Elvish words were different, as Gandalf was really puzzled by what "speak 'friend' and enter" meant. (And it's interesting that neither Legolas (an Elf) nor Gimli (a dwarf, and it presumably was dwarves who put the message and enchanted door there) could seem able to translate it, but it had to be Gandalf.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

I, obviously, don't mean "eternal" such as we'd still be using now, in, what was it, the Seventh Age (though I thought Melkor was only set to be trapped for four ages before Dagor Dagorlath, but I'd heard, from other reports, that Tolkien said we're in sixth or seventh age now.)

Still, could one have used the same Elvish language in the age of the lamps or the trees and still be understood by most third or, what remained of them, fourth age elves in Middle Earth?
Was there the same language of men used by Beren in Beleriand, Elros in Numenor, Isildur in united Gondor, Aragorn in Third Age Arnor, and perhaps Barliamen Butterbur's grandson in the Fourth Age (assuming he had a grandson) in Bree?

Would Feanor, Gilgalad, Celeborn, and Legolas all be using the same language?

I know that there are at least two langauges in Middle Earth, for the Riders of Rohan only took a bit more kindly than usual to Aragorn because he knew their speech, as they said that, with times being dark such as they are, they didn't bother with foreigners in their land who didn't evne know thier language.

And there appears to have been at least two languages of Elvish. One that was Elvish and one that was "Black Speech" (the one that was on the Ring, but, as Gandalf said, was Elvish) that was created (or twisted) by Sauron, or perhaps even Morgoth, to be its own dialect (albeit one that Elrond apparently knew and was not happy to hear Gandalf utter in Rivendale.)

Also, did Hobbits have the same language? Did the Hobbits of the Shire speak the same language as those in Bree or even that of the Stoorish Hobbits of the time of Gollum's Youth?

I do think, now that I think of it, that Entish, other than expanding due to time getting longer and words getting longer, was essentially the same. The Ents seem more a relic of the First Age than even the Elves!

And what of the Dwarves? Could Durin and Balin, assuming they were able to meet, be able to understand each other or would the old dwarven language of the first or second age be vastly different from the Misty Mountains or even Iron Mountains Dwarves?


Now that I think of it, it did seem that some Elvish words were different, as Gandalf was really puzzled by what "speak 'friend' and enter" meant. (And it's interesting that neither Legolas (an Elf) nor Gimli (a dwarf, and it presumably was dwarves who put the message and enchanted door there) could seem able to translate it, but it had to be Gandalf.

Do you mean a Middle-earth version of our world's Latin? Which we can understand and speak today? Only the accent is lost to us, but not the language. It is still used liturgically in our world, and is unchanged from its time in Antiquity. Khuzdul of the Dwarves seemed to have been a private language, and I assume a language that is private is unchanged, or would be.


CL

 

[Ent]

I'd say I'm thoroughly confused, but I'd just be speaking of my normal state.

Even the Entish had changed to a degree, as Treebeard speaks of 'how did it go in the Old Entish?' implying differences. Yet he still knew it. Did the younger ents? Or did they only know parts of it, such as the old 'lists' ?? Who knows.

The language of men had changed certainly, and a version canned 'common language' was developed and used, due to the loss of understanding of the older.

Entish took on many forms.

Even the Black Speech devised by Sauron in the Dark Years saw changes. As he failed in his purpose to make it the language of all that served him, what remained were 'many words derived from it wide-spread among the Orcs."

Language everywhere has changed over time due to many factors. Tolkien was very well aware of this, being a philologist, and he incorporated it into his work just as language actually works, pretty much as he did with everything he wrote of.

 

[Elthir]

Many questions, but dealing generally with the Elvish part. . .

"And there appears to have been at least two languages of Elvish. One that was Elvish and one that was "Black Speech" (the one that was on the Ring, but, as Gandalf said, was Elvish) that was created (or twisted) by Sauron, or. . ."

There were many Elvish tongues and dialects, but the two "main" Elvish languages found in The Lord of the Rings are Quenya and Sindarin. A version of Quenya was brought from Aman by the Noldor when they first returned to Middle-earth, and Sindarin had developed in Middle-earth itself. These are two branches of the great Elvish "Tree of Tongues", so to speak.

The language on the One Ring was Black Speech. When the characters say "Elvish" in this context they're talking about the writing, the elvish letters used to write the Black Speech on the One.

More generally speaking with respect to the changing of the Elvish tongues, Tolkien once wrote a text called: Dangweth Pengoloð: the answer of Pengoloð to Ælfwine who asked him how came it that the tongues of the Elves changed and were sundered. This was published in The Peoples of Middle-Earth.

It's not a long text. You could read it at a bookstore if you didn't want to buy the whole book. The text dates to the 1950s (probably earlier in the decade than later, according to Christopher Tolkien), but anyway it illustrates that JRRT himself thought about a question certain "mortals" might have regarding the changing of languages spoken by very long-lived people with great memories.

To go into detail about all these Elven tongues and dialects would take some time (for only one example, any known differences between the Sindarin spoken in Thingol's Doriath and "North Sindarin"), but Appendix F's Of The Elves provides a nice, brief summary of, as I say, the two "main" Elvish languages found in The Lord of the Rings, for starters.

Now that I think of it, it did seem that some Elvish words were different, as Gandalf was really puzzled by what "speak 'friend' and enter" meant.

To my mind Gandalf seems to read the words easily enough, and I'd say the problem was Gimli's interpretation, which the Wizard appears to agree with at first regarding the solution.

The Sindarin verb pedo ("speak, say") is, in this passage, inflected in the imperative (pedo).

Also, one can get a glimpse of a linguistic relationship here by looking at Quenya quet-, the Quenya verbal stem for "to say, speak, tell", and its Sindarin cognate ped- “to say, speak”. In other words, and very generally speaking, it's basically an illustration of a notable Common Telerin sound change: KW to P (Pendi for Quendi, for instance).

🐾

 

[Ent]

So from the response by @Elthir, @BalrogRingDestroyer, you can see what happens when you ask a simple 'yes or no' question around here.
At this point, and after extensive pondering, I'm going to hazard the guess the answer is best expressed as..........
............... NO.

(Just as it is in our world today.)

And just think... if even the Maia, who have been around since the beginning, need to sift and sort and think and hem and haw, imagine how hard it is for all the regular ole' folk hanging about in M-e. Why, it's almost like there might be some language barriers from time to time.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Ahah -- @Elthir awakes, so saving [me] much trouble and pain! 😊

The language on the One Ring was Black Speech

I should have caught that about the Tengwar on the Ring, but I confess I only made a cursory skim of this thread.

I have to say your frequent use of miniscule type is making me go blind!

 

[Elthir]

I have to say your frequent use of miniscule type is making me go blind!

Apologies

Anywhom, when I read the thread title, my mind (such as it is), first went to "possibly" Valarin, but so far, after re-reading parts of Quendi and Eldar's note on Valarin, and parts of Of Dwarves and Men, and Dangweth Pengoloð, I can't find an explicit, positive statement that it never changed.

Valarin has a bit of a fun external history: in a pre-Lord of the Rings text called The Lhammas (published in The Lost Road), Orome found the awakened Elves and taught them Valarin, and "all the tongues that have been derived thence may be called Oromian or Quendian. The speech of the Valar changes little, for the Valar do not die; and before the Sun and Moon it altered not from age to age in Valinor."

Then, much later, according to a letter dated 1958, Valarin seems to have vanished altogether! In a letter to Rhona Beare (letter 282), Tolkien stated that: "the Valar had no language of their own, not needing one." Hmm. In any case, in the even later conception, the Elves invented speech on their own before Orome found them, and Valarin exists of course, but was not the ancestor of the Elvish languages.

I found some interesting quotes ("interesting" meaning "possibly suggestive" depending upon interpretation) dating from the 1950s and later, but as I say, nothing yet (in my opinion) to definitively say that Valarin was wholly changeless over the ages. And I likewise haven't found something like the above from the older Lhammas -- that is, a clear statement that the language changed little, indicating some amount of change at least.

And I won't go into Tolkien's later ideas concerning the Sun and Moon, considering what is said in the Lhammas above. Also, I intended to write this part in smaller text. . . but then I didn't.

And with respect to more quote hunting: I say "so far" but I'm probably done looking. There might be some source "hiding" right in front of me that states things clearly enough here, but a nap missed is a
nap I'll never get back!

🐾

 

[Ent]

a nap missed is a nap I'll never get back!

I gotta ask: are your naps filled with images of your favorite cardboard boxes?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Perhaps militant ones?

 

[Ent]

Perhaps militant ones?

It is indeed said cats alsways deal with us 'according to their own terms.' 😱