• Welcome to The Tolkien Forum! Connect with fellow Tolkien enthusiasts and join a community that is over two decades old, and still going strong. We look forward to meeting you.  Register

What about Eledain and Elrohir? (i think)

Celebthôl

Loremaster
Joined
Oct 2, 2002
Messages
2,413
When they company walked the paths of the dead they were accompanied by 3 Elves, Legolas, Eledain and Elrohir (i think they were the names) yet only Legolas its says did not fear the spirits of Men, what about Elronds sons? surely they being Elves did not fear them either, but why then is it not stated?
 
No it can't. Seeing as they were Elrond's sons, they had to be elves (half-elves actually, or would it be 3/4 because Celebrian was 100% elf and Elrond was half?), anyway, thats beside the point, they were elves. That's a good question Celeb, perhaps Tolkien just assumed that if the readers knew Legolas wasn't afraid, they'd think the other 2 weren't afraid either because they were more powerful elves than Legolas is.
 
That was a thought i had, thanx :)

I guess im looking to far into it

Great to see you again Glorf :D
 
Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
No it can't. Seeing as they were Elrond's sons, they had to be elves (half-elves actually, or would it be 3/4 because Celebrian was 100% elf and Elrond was half?), anyway, thats beside the point, they were elves.

No they did not have "to be elves". They were not Elves. They were Peredhil. Just like Elrond. And like Arwen, their sister, of whom JRRT wrote:
"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."
Letter 345.
 
Elladan & Elrohir weren't Elves?

from the LotR-Appendix A:
Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary t last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow.
Elrond and Elros (sons of Earendil) had a choice of which race they want to be 'counted among'. Elrond chose the Elven fate and... yes, what's then... he could sail into the West, was immortal and so on. The same 'virtues' his children possessed, right? But it seems to me that their 'elven abilities' depended on whether they go with his father or stay in Middle-earth (kind of confusing:confused: ).
Does anything (what I wrote) make sense?
Anybody?
 
I was to ask the same question, Beleg?

But I think I messed sth up in my post;)
 
My own belief about the half-elven, and this isn't written anywhere that I know of, just what I believe, is that they have fëar not bound to Arda as the elves do, but like elves they have a greater control over their body with their fëar. And when a half-elf gets to choose which race to be counted among, his fëa would become bound to the world or not, depending upon his choice.

fëa - this is the elves' word meaning somthing very much like "spirit". Fëar is the plural form.

If a baby elf gets his fëa from Iluvatar but it is nourished also by his parents, then this could explain why an half-elf could have a spirit not bound to Arda, but still have something extra which allows the half-elven to live a longer life than men, even before making the big choice. Fëa nourished by an elf (or two half elves).

Why did Elros ever weary of life, and age faster than elves eventually, and especially why did he die much younger than Elrond's children had lived to be before making their choice?

In Laws and Customs we learn that the Eldar believe the fëar of all elves come from Eru. In the earlier days elves thought otherwise; that both body and fëa comes from the parents, but some disagreed saying that as elves grow up they show some character trait that is new, not of their parents. But more still they decided this could not be because if it were, then 'rebirth' would be an injustice as it would deprive the parents of half of their input - the fëa half. Now, this latter reason is tricky to me, because Tolkien later dropped 'rebirth' and went with 'rehousing', therefore this can not have been the reasoning of the elves. All the same it is made clear that the Eldar believe that fëar come from Eru.

rebirth - the return of a deceased elf via birth

rehousing - the return of an elf directly into a body identical to his former, so the above mentioned injustice would not exist here, even if elf fëa came originally from parents and not Eru.

In this theory, a half-elf (Elros) who decides to be counted a man and has a human wife, would produce children with fëa not bound to Arda, and with a much smaller amount of elvish nourishment of the fëa. I say small amount, because in theory the half-elf who decided to be a man would still have that extra elvish kick to his fëa and so he may provide a little to his children. These children would reallybe men with perhaps a notably longer life span, but not that elvish mastery over the body with spirit, as did the half-elven acording to my belief.

Laws and customs also tells us that both parents (father no less than mother) nourish the fëa of their child. Also, both parents pass strength of mind and body into their children. But it must be the mother passes more strength in body (mind? doubt it, but am unsure), since we also learn that females have less strength (and speed) after bearing children.

They Eldar also hold that a greater part of their strength goes forth in the begetting and bearing of children, that does with men.

So in my theory, the children of Elrond would have had more elvish nourishment of the fëa than Elros had, since he came of two half-elves, rather than an half-elf and an elf. Since my theory also says that it is the elvish nourishment of the fëa not bound to Arda (the half-elven), which allows them to live longer than men, this could explain why Elros passes at a younger age than Elrond's childern were at when they made their choice.

The problem that I can't explain so well to myself is why Elladan and Elrohir feared the dead. This mostly because I can't understand why the men feared the dead as much as they did. Perhaps there is something in the Letters about this?

But if we just chalk it up to being a spiritual thing, then I will guess that men fear the dead since their own spirits are not bound to the world (though I am still not sure why this should be). This being so, and according to my theory, I would say that the half-elven who had not yet made their choice, would fear the dead because they have spirits not bound to Arda.

There is a quote from Letters (which I do not have, but it is used in that debate that Ancalagon linked to above) saying that Elladan and Elrohir's choice is not told, and that they delayed their choice for some time (paraphrasing - watch out! ;)). But to me this seems to clearly mean that at the time of the Paths of the Dead, they hadn't made their choice.

In theory, Elrond for example, would not have feared the dead.

So my belief is that his sons feared the dead, not because they were half-elven, but because they were half-elves that had not chosen to be counted as elves yet.
 
I could find only three instances in LOTR, concerning Elvish fear of the dead,

Book 5, Chapter 2, The Passing of the Grey Company

‘I also will come,’ said Legolas, ‘for I do not fear the Dead.’

Legolas says in Chapter 9, The Last Debate of Book Five.

I will tell you enough for your peace; for I felt not the horror, and I feared not the shadows of Men, powerless and frail as I deemed them.’


Another mention [In narrative and the most important one at that too] that is related belongs to the same chapter just before they were about the enter the door,

The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror



I have also scanned the text for any instance when the Twins show any sign of discomfort or fear regarding the paths of the dead, but there is none.

It seems clear to me that only Elves, and full-fledge elves at that aren't inlfuenced by the Ghosts of men. The last Quote implies that even Peredhil [Who have not yet choosen their side(or so it seems because we don't know what were the intentions of Elrohir and Eladan as Tolkien never states implictly what there future was] are effected by the ghosts of Men.

This makes one think that there are few basic differences between Peredhil and Elves.


Why did Elros ever weary of life, and age faster than elves eventually, and especially why did he die much younger than Elrond's children had lived to be before making their choice?

Because Elros had decided to become a Mortal, he had made his choice around the age of 100.
It seems to me that only to the elvish side of the Peredhil, the choices of choosing a race are given. [As is clear, since no choice was given to the rulers of Numenor, who were the offspring of Elros Half-elven, yet choice was given to Children of Elrond Half-elven. But In this matter, Nom's theory is plausible at the most, although it still doesn't explain why would the Peredhil be quailed by the ghosts of men; The only theory I can think off is that only pure-blooded elves aren't effected by the ghosts of men, and Elves with streak of mannish blood are effected, but Why are Men so effected? To this Question I cant think of an answer. ]
 
Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
But does this mean that Peredhil possess comparitively few Elvish abilities then full-fledged Elves?

No. It means they were not Elves. Elrond, who was not an Elf (merely accounted among them in fate), had 'abilities' that could be considered 'Elvish'.
The same is likely for his children. But they all had a 'mortal' part. JRRT when writing of them is very careful to draw a distinction between the Elves and the Peredhil regardless of whether a choice has been made or not (with the arguable exception of one place).
 
Originally posted by Nóm
My own belief about the half-elven, and this isn't written anywhere that I know of, just what I believe, is that they have fëar not bound to Arda as the elves do, but like elves they have a greater control over their body with their fëar. And when a half-elf gets to choose which race to be counted among, his fëa would become bound to the world or not, depending upon his choice.


Half-elves are mortal unless Manwe specifically grants them other doom/fate. He only seems to have done that in the cases of Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.

Why did Elros ever weary of life, and age faster than elves eventually, and especially why did he die much younger than Elrond's children had lived to be before making their choice?
Because Elrond's children were granted a doom different than that of Elros. In UT CT summarizes a text by JRRT which notes that Elros had the same potential for life that Elrond had but since he chose to remain among Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men: to seek elsewhither.

The problem that I can't explain so well to myself is why Elladan and Elrohir feared the dead. This mostly because I can't understand why the men feared the dead as much as they did.
I have a problem with Elladan and Elrohir fearing the dead as well. My post above answered why they might have, not whether they did or should. :)
 
By Beleg:
...it still doesn't explain why would the Peredhil be quailed by the ghosts of men; The only theory I can think off is that only pure-blooded elves aren't effected by the ghosts of men, and Elves with streak of mannish blood are effected, but Why are Men so effected?

I think it would explain it. At least, it was ment to, and in theory it does in my mind.

In my idea, the half-elves would fear the dead because their own spirits are not bound to Arda, unless they have decided to be counted as elves and it sounds like Elrond's sons had not yet.
by Beleg
Because Elros had decided to become a Mortal, he had made his choice around the age of 100.
Before now, this left me thinking: Well if Elrond's children lived so much longer before even chosing, one would think they were almost surely going to be counted as elves. I thought this because of my belief about the fea of half-elves who had not made a choice yet.

But I did consider the possability that Elros's fea's fate caused him to want to leave the world eventually, and now Tar-Elenion has told us about what is said of it in UT. So now I know the answer about Elros beyond a doubt. But I still think the half-elven must have fear not bound to Arda, since it seems that they would all be mortal unless granted otherwise.

Why didn't the fea of a half-elf who has not been counted among the elves, if his fea is not bound to Arda as my theory holds, not weary as soon as Elros? This is why I came up with that, perhaps far-fetched, bit about elvish nourishment of the fear of half-elves. I also came up with the nourishment bit to explain why it might be that the children of Elros did not have a choice.

by Tar-Elenion
Half-elves are mortal unless Manwe specifically grants them other doom/fate. He only seems to have done that in the cases of Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.

I am aware of this, but should have specified in my post above.

By Beleg-strongbow
The only theory I can think off is that only pure-blooded elves aren't effected by the ghosts of men, and Elves with streak of mannish blood are effected, but Why are Men so effected?
The reason I think it must have to do with the fate of the fear of men, is that the fate of the fear of elves and men is really the chief difference between the races. That men do not know what happens after death, may also have something to do with it.


But knowing now that Tolkien says that Elros had the same potential for life as Elrond, I think back to this from laws and Customs:
The fear of the elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny. Their fear were tenacious therefore of life 'in the raiment of Arda', and far exceled the spirits of Men in power over that 'raiment', even from the first days...
They do not contradict, assuming Tolkien ment that Elros had that same potential if he had wanted that long life and chose to be counted among the elves. If Tolkien means that Elros could have lived as long as Elrond even after chosing his fate, then this raises questions.

I haven't read CT's summary of this, but I'd really like to know all of what Tolkien said on it. Maybe it will be published one day?


But what Tolkien says about Elros's potential fits nicely with the theory of elvish nourishment. Because for me it explains why Elros' children did not get to chose their fate - they would not have had that same potential for life.
 
Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Half-elves are mortal unless Manwe specifically grants them other doom/fate. He only seems to have done that in the cases of Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.

I agree; and the many mentions of men with elvish blood (Imrahil comes to mind) corroborate it. There are no mention of elves with mannish blood; only the Peredhil (I will call those persons named by Tar-Elenion "Peredhil" for simplification; other children born from men and elves are "half-elves" in this post. This difference is necessary, for the reason given by Tar-Elenion: only the Peredhil had a choice).

As I see it, there are two questions to be explored here:

1) Why did not the choice pass to Elros' children, as it did for Elrond's children?

2) Why did Men fear the Dead?

Regarding (1): As the choice is a voluntary gift from the Valar, and not an automatic inherited trait, I think the best explanation is simply that the Valar did not offer the choice to Elros' children, for the simple reason that Elros wanted his children to follow his fate. Elrond might very well have preferred the choice to be withdrawn from Arwen, thereby automatically granting her the fate of Elves, instead of seeing her choose Aragorn. In other words, I think that if one of Elros' children fell in love with an Elf and decided to be counted as an Elf, it is quite possible that the Valar would have granted it to him; I don't think that Elros choose "for" his children any more than Elrond did. After the first generation, of course, no one was a Peredhil anymore; as Eldarion (Arwen's son) was not.

I don't want to get into those complex calculation of the amount of Elvish blood in Elros' children; I suppose it is as much as the mannish blood in Arwen, give or take a few.

As for (2): I think the horror of the Dead comes from seeing the unhoused fëa, the destiny all men share and fear; unlike the Elves. To an Elf a disembodied fëa is just another of Arda's wonders, one that bears no relation to his own fate; he knows quite well that HE will never become a being like that*.

Men, on the other hand, fear death, precisely because it is the unhousing of the fëa, after which it is sent into the unknown, into the Darkness outside Arda. In other words, Men feared the Dead because they were looking at themselves; and they saw that the dead were cursed and lived in anguish. Who could guarantee that their own fëar would not become like that in the Darkness outside? It is enough to turn one's stomach.

There remains the matter of Gimli. The Dwarves believed that they were gathered by Aulë; does anyone know if this gathering was as disembodied fëar or as "re-housed" beings? We don't know the truth, I think, but perhaps someone knows the Dwarven belief, to see whether Gimli would also "see himself" in the Dead or not.



* We know that some elves refused the Valar's summons and stayed as disembodied fëar in M-E; my question is, did Legolas know that? I think not. I think that the quotes show very well that Legolas did not fear the Dead because he "thought them weak", and I think this means that he believed he was stronger than them; and always would be. Was the possibility of permanent unhousing ever in his mind?

A lot of speculations. I hope someone who knows more can shed some light.
 

Today's events

Similar threads

Back
Top