What Christian imagery was in the LOTR movies?

Ent · May 29, 2023

One bit of 'symbology' evident (as Ent keeps pondering) is the light coming from Gandalf's staff. (the 'stone' at its top the focal point.)

The light is, of course, intended to represent the "light shining in the darkness" and the "light going before the people" and the "light that shows the way" etc. from Scripture... carried by Eru (God) to his chosen people through his 'messengers' (angels, Maia) to aid them.

Note Saruman's staff is never spoken of as providing any 'guiding light'.. a key many often miss as well.

Whil;e Ent believes it was very purposeful by Tolkien, again Ent believes it to be purely accidental - a copied item - by PJ. (this will be the last time Ent mentions this aspect, as he does not believe PJ did anything connecting Tolkien's Christianity to the films purposefully...i.e. with the same intent. If it helped in the 'spectacle' and concept of enticing the audience to 'familiarity' enhancing financial gain and audience entertainment, it made it in. Ent does not think PJ had a clue WHY Tolkien incorporated what he did in the works.)

Ent may think of more here... we must not be hasty.

Ent · May 29, 2023

By the way, related to the above is the scene when Gandalf and the Rohirrim come dashing down the hill and Gandalf's staff blazes with light into the face of the armies of evil - which even though they have been 'bred to withstand the light of day" (many of them) - are still dismayed and unable to stand before the "light of Truth" that Gandalf and his staff represent.

Jimbo Baggins · May 29, 2023

Ent said:
By the way, related to the above is the scene when Gandalf and the Rohirrim come dashing down the hill and Gandalf's staff blazes with light into the face of the armies of evil - which even though they have been 'bred to withstand the light of day" (many of them) - are still dismayed and unable to stand before the "light of Truth" that Gandalf and his staff represent.

It happens again when the Rohirrim storm Minas Tirith.

emel28 · May 30, 2023

Aethelwulf said:
One of Aragorn's names is Envinyatar which means renewer, and the ''hands of a king, are the hands of a healer'' which both remind me of Christ.
The Ring is like Sin itself, its something you want to get rid of, but can't, it weighs you down, and no one was able to get rid of it by themselves.

The others are not in TLOtR, but in the Silmarillion:
The Numenoreans assailing Aman, is like the Flood and the Tower Of Babel rolled into one.
Melkor's rebellion, is obviously like Satan's rebellion.

I didn't know that about Aragorn's name, thanks.

Ent said:
By the way, related to the above is the scene when Gandalf and the Rohirrim come dashing down the hill and Gandalf's staff blazes with light into the face of the armies of evil - which even though they have been 'bred to withstand the light of day" (many of them) - are still dismayed and unable to stand before the "light of Truth" that Gandalf and his staff represent.

That's excellent, thank you!

Ent · May 30, 2023

Another thought to play with:
When Gandalf reminds Theoden he too is a 'Steward' he's talking about being a Steward of the light (and kingdom) of Eru. For Tolkien this is the Kingdom of God.
In his Christian theology, (and Scripturally) all God's children and 'messengers (angels)' are 'stewards' of the Kingdom, charged with 'keeping the Truth' and 'bringing the light' to the perishing. (and we must not forget Scripture calls both the hevenly beings and man himself 'angelos' or 'angels' actually properly 'messengers.'
So PJ inadvertently brings that thought into play as well.

Ent will keep pondering.

Ent · May 30, 2023

Does this conversation between Gandalf and Frodo make it into PJs film? (or a form of it?) Ent's memory is unclear.

Frodo: "‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.
Gandalf: ‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

If it does, this is very much a Christian principle.

Vorondil · May 30, 2023

Ent said:
Does this conversation between Gandalf and Frodo make it into PJs film? (or a form of it?) Ent's memory is unclear.

Frodo: "‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.
Gandalf: ‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

If it does, this is very much a Christian principle.

It is in the films. Yes it is very much a Christian principle.

Squint-eyed Southerner · May 30, 2023

It's also a part of the Northern "Theory of Courage".

Vorondil · May 30, 2023

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
It's also a part of the Northern "Theory of Courage''.

Its quite similar to the British ''Keep a stiff upper lip no matter what'', kind of thing.

Squint-eyed Southerner · May 30, 2023

True enough, in a way-- though it predates that by a thousand years or more. 😄

emel28 · May 30, 2023

Ent said:
Another thought to play with:
When Gandalf reminds Theoden he too is a 'Steward' he's talking about being a Steward of the light (and kingdom) of Eru. For Tolkien this is the Kingdom of God.
In his Christian theology, (and Scripturally) all God's children and 'messengers (angels)' are 'stewards' of the Kingdom, charged with 'keeping the Truth' and 'bringing the light' to the perishing. (and we must not forget Scripture calls both the hevenly beings and man himself 'angelos' or 'angels' actually properly 'messengers.'
So PJ inadvertently brings that thought into play as well.

Ent will keep pondering.

Thanks, Ent! I've already written a little about how the concept of LotR and Biblical stewardship compare.

It's been noted many times how there are no direct parallels to Christ, but some say that Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn embody Christ's threefold office: prophet, priest, king respectively. Indeed, just as Gandalf is 'sent', so are many biblical prophets.

Squint-eyed Southerner · May 30, 2023

If you're going there, I'd say Frodo embodies the "suffering servant" role. As far as "priest", it's Sam who most qualifies; remember: Frodo plays almost no role in the Scouring of the Shire, other than trying to avoid needless deaths. Afterwards, he's basically withdrawn from activity, until his departure. It's Sam whose hard work renews the Shire, as we return to the Low Mimetic world, though lifted by Galadriel's gift, and Sam whose experience in the wider world makes him, in my opinion, the "priest" of what we could call Middle-earth values in the Shire.

emel28 · May 30, 2023

Ent said:
Does this conversation between Gandalf and Frodo make it into PJs film? (or a form of it?) Ent's memory is unclear.

Frodo: "‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.
Gandalf: ‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

If it does, this is very much a Christian principle.

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
If you're going there, I'd say Frodo embodies the "suffering servant" role. As far as "priest", it's Sam who most qualifies; remember: Frodo plays almost no role in the Scouring of the Shire, other than trying to avoid needless deaths. Afterwards, he's basically withdrawn from activity, until his departure. It's Sam whose hard work renews the Shire, as we return to the Low Mimetic world, though lifted by Galadriel's gift, and Sam whose experience in the wider world makes him, in my opinion, the "priest" of what we could call Middle-earth values in the Shire.

I think I did read some interpretations with Sam in that role. Thanks, I think I'm going to include that.

emel28 · May 30, 2023

I just thought of something. Gandalf's "You shall not pass", sounds much more biblical (The 10 Commandments, thou shalt not...) than the book version "You cannot pass".

Elbereth Vala Varda · May 30, 2023

To start, and this is more of a Catholic reference, Lembas. Lembas is Elvish waybread, and seems to form a certain viaticum, immediately calling to mind the Eucharist. Bread for the Journey, it is, originally deriving from the Quenyan term: coimas meaning "life-bread" which to devout Christians and Catholics alike, immediately resembles the "Bread of Life" which Catholics receive at Mass in Holy Eucharist.

emel28 · May 30, 2023

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
To start, and this is more of a Catholic reference, Lembas. Lembas is Elvish waybread, and seems to form a certain viaticum, immediately calling to mind the Eucharist. Bread for the Journey, it is, originally deriving from the Quenyan term: coimas meaning "life-bread" which to devout Christians and Catholics alike, immediately resembles the "Bread of Life" which Catholics receive at Mass in Holy Eucharist.

That's right, but is the lembas in the movies different from lembas in the books?

Elbereth Vala Varda · May 30, 2023

emel28 said:
That's right, but is the lembas in the movies different from lembas in the books?

Sort of. Lembas in the books is said to have more significance, because obviously in a book, those things are mentioned more. However, as far as I know, the Lembas does not take on any alternate properties in books vs. movies.

Squint-eyed Southerner · May 30, 2023

emel28 said:
I just thought of something. Gandalf's "You shall not pass", sounds much more biblical (The 10 Commandments, thou shalt not...) than the book version "You cannot pass".

This seems a stretch, TBH. There are a number of threads touching on the sequence; here's one:

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/gandalfs-words-to-balrog.1508/

Squint-eyed Southerner · May 30, 2023

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
To start, and this is more of a Catholic reference, Lembas. Lembas is Elvish waybread, and seems to form a certain viaticum, immediately calling to mind the Eucharist. Bread for the Journey, it is, originally deriving from the Quenyan term: coimas meaning "life-bread" which to devout Christians and Catholics alike, immediately resembles the "Bread of Life" which Catholics receive at Mass in Holy Eucharist.

Tolkien makes the connection explicit in one of his letters.

Elbereth Vala Varda · May 30, 2023

If I may also suggest,

Frodo's Journey by Joseph Pearce

And, this video:

They might help you with your endeavor!

What Christian imagery was in the LOTR movies?

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