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What exactly does Narya do for 🧙Gandalf?

Úlairi, I thank you for your well presented answer. I have only one small point of disagreement. While I agree with your point that Melkor had marred the light of the Sun and the Moon, he had not corrupted them to evil. It is true the light of the Sun is not the "Pure" light of Laurelin because of Melkor yet it is still the most pure form of that light with the exeption of the Silmarils.
To claim from this marring of the Sun that Gandalf was also a wielder of the 'Dark Fire' would be to say that All Arda was Evil. This we know to be untrue as all Arda is only Tainted By Melkor. There is still far more good in Arda than Evil.
 
Úlairi is right of course. All three Elven rings were made from the substance of Arda marred by Elves of Arda Marred. It seems unlikely to me that Narya could be the flame of Anor, not least because it is 'wielded' - a word more associated with offensive weaponry than preserving power. I believe the secret fire and the flame or Anor are connected; flame issues from fire. If Gandalf's white flashy moments are a weapon from the secret fire, then the Balrog is history. See the first chapter of John's Gospel for some interesting stuff on light versus darkness.
 
Eledwhen, good answer.


All Arda is fundamentally 'tainted' and therefore has 'evil aspects'. The very idea of the Three (i.e. their preservational powers) was against the will of the Valar, the Elves were attempting to stop the days of their 'waning', which is against Eru's plan and therefore (in a way) sinful. I was proving a point through contradiction. I said that Gandalf could not be wielding Narya in reference to what he said, but it must be the light of the Sun. Now, that too is essentially 'marred', but it still is essentially 'good' also. You see, (even though I disagree in some ways), Free Will (in a sense) is still fundamentally operable within 'Arda Marred', and therefore someone can use something that is 'marred' and make it into something beautiful. Númenor, the island of bliss for Men was still fundamentally 'Arda Marred', but was beautiful nevertheless. Galadriel, fairest and wisest of all Elves, her hröa was essentially 'marred', but was still considered beautiful. The only problem is, being 'marred', it can be turned to the purposes of evil, so, in a sense, Free Will is even more operable within these circumstances. However, if this were true, then Narya also could be referred to as the Flame of Anor. So, I propose that CT was wrong in his choice of the creation of the Sun and the Moon. If you read the version of the making of the Sun and the Moon and the Two Trees, I daresay 'The Flame of Anor' could indeed be considered pure. But perhaps the 'Flame of Anor' could indeed be a reference to Gandalf's own power. He is a pure Angelic being (although his hröa too, is essentially 'marred'), the light that he could be wielding is light that he possessed from the very beginning i.e. 'intrinsic power'. He was revealing himself in a form of majesty, as the Ainur were not 'marred' unless they were incarnate, and even then they could choose to leave that form. The Valar all had raiments, the 'Clothes of Ilúvatar', and therefore were never 'marred', by the substance of the earth that Melkor had disseminated his power into. Hope that helps Gothmog and Anc.
 
... and there is always the free will to give up free will, which would be the outcome of, say, Galadriel or Gandalf accepting the One Ring. I think Gandalf prevailed against the Balrog because Gandalf's power came from without (the secret fire, which is with Iluvatar) whereas the Balrog's power was cut off from its source (Morgoth, weakened and banished).

I am interested that the Elves 'became aware of him' when Sauron put on the One Ring, and that the Men and Dwarves apparently did not. I have to put this down to the fact that the rings of power made by and in co-operation with Sauron were also imbued with a power to deceive the wearer. The Elven rings of course would not possess this feature, and seem to have had the opposite effect - the reading of hearts and minds and the revealing of deception.
 

Perhaps, but if that were the case then there should have been no contest. I would daresay that the 'marring' of Gandalf's incarnate body was also essentially diminishing Gandalf's ability to display his angelic power. But, I believe it would have more to do with Gandalf's own inherent power, than that of Ilúvatar, although that's where his (and the Balrogs) inherent power came from.


Answer is simple, the Men and the Dwarves hadn't received their Rings (from Sauron) yet.
 
Úlairi. Thanks for the explanation. I agree with your comments about the whole of Arda being 'Tainted', including the Sun. My problem was only with what seemed to be an over-emphasis of the marring of the Sun. There are, as you say, 'Evil Aspects' in everything in Arda so even something made with the best of intentions can still be turned to evil.

As for your idea that The Flame of Anor 'could be a reference to Gandalf's own power.' I am unsure of this. However, I will have to give it more thought before I can discuss it.
 

Well, the Elves probably had good intentions of self-preservation, but that was turned to evil. There are many instances where we can see that.

Gothmog said:
As for your idea that The Flame of Anor 'could be a reference to Gandalf's own power.' I am unsure of this. However, I will have to give it more thought before I can discuss it.

Well, if it were to make a good argument, I would indeed say it would be Gandalf's own power (and not the light of the Sun, unless we were to apply the version of Of the Sun and the Moon from Myths Transformed, which I got confused with the real version. ), as that would be inherently good and not 'tainted'.
 
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Yes, he was tired, and had already been challenged in a non-fire spell-battle. However, I do not think the fire was inherent, as it was 'with Iluvatar' (Ainulindale) and Gandalf was its servant. It may, however, have been indwelling. If it was inherent, it would not have been possible to revoke Saruman's power (assuming his power was of the same nature as Gandalf's).



Answer is simple, the Men and the Dwarves hadn't received their Rings (from Sauron) yet.
Oh, I see!
 


I believe this suggests that the powers inherent to every Ainur is of course 'kindled by the Flame Imperishable', so, Gandalf is talking about the Flame of the Flame Imperishable.

The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë: The Music of the Ainur
"'And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be the heart of the World,...'"


Well, I hope the works of Tolkien clarifies that one for you!

Eledwhen said:
Oh, I see!

Good, then that's all done!
 
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