What is the "Flame of Arnor?"

[Hawkblaze]

I just finished The Silmarillion and I hoped to figure out what the Flame of Arnor is when Gandalf challenges the Balrog on the Bridge, but absolutely nothing appears on the subject. Could it be the Ring of Fire? Any answers would be appreciated.

 

[gate7ole]

It is not "flame of Arnor", but "flame of Anor"
Anor ~ Sun
So, a translation "flame of Sun" would be better.
I think it refers to the Elven-Ring he possess, Narya, the Ring of Fire.

 

[Phee]

From http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ ....

A mysterious power claimed by Gandalf in the face of Durin's Bane. It is nowhere else referred to, and so its particular meaning remains unclear. Anor is the Sun, and so literally the 'flame of Anor' would be the light of the Sun, the fiery fruit of Laurelin, one of the Two Trees of Valinor. Gandalf seems to be referring, then, to the power he gains as a servant of the Lords of the West, in defiance to the corrupted darkness of the Balrog.

 

[Confusticated]

Well it is open to interpretation, I am of the same thought as gate7ole, though others around here have argued against this being reference to Narya.
Some have said that they think it refers to the Flame Imperishable. No telling what other interpretations are out there.

 

[Lantarion]

I have always thought of it as either a reference to the Flame Imperishable, or more indirectly to Ilúvatar, or to the fruit of Laurelin which is a surviving fragment of the Two Trees, at which Melkor could not get. Haha.
But not to Narya, I don't think; I don't think he would call the Ring of Fire by the name of the Sun.

 

[Celebthôl]

plus it would have the down side of giving away the whereabouts of the ring of fire right to a main enemy...

 

[gate7ole]

Why shouldn’t Gandalf reveal that he was the wielder of an Elvish Ring to the main enemy? What possible trouble would he cause? War was imminent and Sauron wouldn’t be at all benefited by such knowledge anymore. Besides, he surely knew that the Rings were at Rivenell, Lórien and the other elvish strongholds, but attacking them was not an easy task at all.
Furthermore, I would believe that Gandalf revealed his “secret weapon” to the Balrog at least to frighten him and attack him psychologically.
About the calling of the ring Flame of Sun, who knows what other characteristics did Narya have? One of them might be relevant with the Sun. We don’t know, so I can’t accept such an argument.

PS. A good subject for debate.

 

[Ithrynluin]

From FOTR: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

`I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'

I disagree that this is a reference to Narya (again we disagree gate7ole...what else is new, right?).

Why would Gandalf call himself "a servant" of a ring? The Keepers of the Three don't serve the rings, the Rings serve them.

Gandalf makes a clear comparison:
He serves the "light" fire, the ultimate force of good, basically the elements of life. He emphasizes this by using the word "Anor", (the) sun, which is a source of life and all evil cowers from its flame.
While the Balrog serves the "dark" fire, the forces of darkness and evil. He can use the dark forces all he wants, but the will of Eru will prevail eventually.

 

[FoolOfATook]

It seems to me that we are all assuming that "servant of the Secret Fire" and "wielder of the flame of Anor" refer to the same thing. I haven't given the matter anywhere near enough thought, but the reference to the Secret Fire seems to be, at least to me, a reference to the Flame Imperishable, particularily because of the word "servant". The only two beings that Gandalf, at this point, has to answer to are to his Valar, presumably Manwe, but that's a whole different debate, and to the Iluvatar. However, the word "wielder" I interpret as refering either to Narya (Tolkien uses the word "wield" fairly often in reference to the Rings of Power, as I recall) or to something else, something along the lines of many of the suggestions thus far.

Hoom, I'm fairly sure that I'm not saying what I mean very clearly right now- a thousand curses be laid upon teachers who assign essays about the early films of Kubrick, and then don't take my procrastination in account when giving due dates.

 

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Why shouldn’t Gandalf reveal that he was the wielder of an Elvish Ring to the main enemy? What possible trouble would he cause?

Doesn't Galadriel say something like (i cant find the right quotes right now) "He (Sauron) suspects there is a ring in Lorien and in Rivendell, ut he must never find them!

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Doesn't Galadriel say something like (i cant find the right quotes right now) "He (Sauron) suspects there is a ring in Lorien and in Rivendell, but he must never find them!

Again, this is totally my understanding, but at this point what would be the benefit to know the position of the three Elven Rings? Sauron would need to make war to take them from the bearers. And this was what he intended to do, regardless of knowing the place of the Rings.
The situation was not as it used to be. There would be ultimate win or ultimate defeat. Hiding the positions of the Three was more or less unimportant for the outcome of the War.

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Why would Gandalf call himself "a servant" of a ring? The Keepers of the Three don't serve the rings, the Rings serve them.

Gandalf makes a clear comparison:
He serves the "light" fire, the ultimate force of good, basically the elements of life. He emphasizes this by using the word "Anor", (the) sun, which is a source of life and all evil cowers from its flame.
While the Balrog serves the "dark" fire, the forces of darkness and evil. He can use the dark forces all he wants, but the will of Eru will prevail eventually.

Not servant of the Ring, but of it’s powers that were drawn by fire. As I said I fail to see the connection with the Sun, but it doesn’t mean that it can’t exist.
And to open a new direction to our discussion, do you think that Gandalf would have defended him and the Fellowship without the help of Narya? Was Gandalf (the Grey, not the White) able to defeat the Balrog only with his inherent powers, which were limited because of his incarnation? I think not and I believe that Gandalf also knowing this, in a way “called” the Ring to draw power from it.

Originally posted by ithrynluin
I disagree that this is a reference to Narya (again we disagree gate7ole...what else is new, right? ).

Imagine a life where everyone agreed with you

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Not servant of the Ring, but of it’s powers that were drawn by fire. As I said I fail to see the connection with the Sun, but it doesn’t mean that it can’t exist.
And to open a new direction to our discussion, do you think that Gandalf would have defended him and the Fellowship without the help of Narya? Was Gandalf (the Grey, not the White) able to defeat the Balrog only with his inherent powers, which were limited because of his incarnation? I think not and I believe that Gandalf also knowing this, in a way “called” the Ring to draw power from it.

Flame of Anor...perhaps the connection with the sun is that the sun is hot and fiery (and makes things grow and makes them warm) and Gandalf's ring is the Ring of Fire (and warms people's spirits and makes them grow metaphorically speaking)?

The Three Rings of the Elves were not devices of war. They were made for peaceful purposes of preserving life and postponing the decays of time. But it is said of Narya particularly that it's power was to give warmth and strength to the spirit, so I won't deny that Narya probably strentgthened Gandalf's spirit in that moment.

NONETHELESS...
Why would Gandalf feel the need to tell the Balrog that he possesses the ring? They were both ancient creatures come to life before time began. The ring is of such little importance compared to their innate powers as Maiar! Why would the Balrog be interested in the fact that Gandalf owns one of the Elven rings? I assume they would be but mere trifles to his eyes, and having no substantial power (for war anyway).

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
NONETHELESS...
Why would Gandalf feel the need to tell the Balrog that he possesses the ring? They were both ancient creatures come to life before time began. The ring is of such little importance compared to their innate powers as Maiar! Why would the Balrog be interested in the fact that Gandalf owns one of the Elven rings? I assume they would be but mere trifles to his eyes, and having no substantial power (for war anyway).

I give you the credit that the Balrog wouldn't find the Ring of any danger and would surely think of it as sth trifle. Yet, in a duel, someone uses all the tools he has psychological or not. And maybe naming his weapons, whoever trifle they may seem, is a good way of bewildering the opponent.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by gate7ole
I give you the credit that the Balrog wouldn't find the Ring of any danger and would surely think of it as sth trifle. Yet, in a duel, someone uses all the tools he has psychological or not. And maybe naming his weapons, whoever trifle they may seem, is a good way of bewildering the opponent.

Would the Balrog even know what Gandalf was talking about ? How much of Middle Earth's history (2nd and 3rd Ages) could it have absorbed sleeping in the depths of Moria? Little, or none. Balrogs never struck me as the "loremaster" type of creature. They were fierce fighting machines, which could be the reason why they never (felt the need? or couldn't) spoke. Did the Balrog even understand what Gandalf was saying in the Common Tongue (or which language was he using)?

Simply too many contradictions and little bits and details for "the flame of Anor" to be Narya.

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Would the Balrog even know what Gandalf was talking about ? How much of Middle Earth's history (2nd and 3rd Ages) could it have absorbed sleeping in the depths of Moria? Little, or none. Balrogs never struck me as the "loremaster" type of creature. They were fierce fighting machines, which could be the reason why they never (felt the need? or couldn't) spoke. Did the Balrog even understand what Gandalf was saying in the Common Tongue (or which language was he using)?

Simply too many contradictions and little bits and details for "the flame of Anor" to be Narya.

I don't consider the Balrogs just stupid killing machines (like Trolls for example). They were Maiar, and that means spirits of great potency. I guess that after his "awakening" by the dwarves he would learn everything important of the Two Ages and the Rings were very important.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by gate7ole
I don't consider the Balrogs just stupid killing machines (like Trolls for example). They were Maiar, and that means spirits of great potency. I guess that after his "awakening" by the dwarves he would learn everything important of the Two Ages and the Rings were very important.

Of course, I am not saying they are stupid or anything. And how exactly would he learn everything important? Or even more importantly - from who? The Orcs of Moria? Or was he accepted to pry into the scrolls of Minas Tirith, much like Gandalf and Saruman?

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Of course, I am not saying they are stupid or anything. And how exactly would he learn everything important? Or even more importantly - from who? The Orcs of Moria? Or was he accepted to pry into the scrolls of Minas Tirith, much like Gandalf and Saruman?

Did he need to consult the scrolls to learn about the Rings? I don't mean to learn the position of the One, just that there were some Great Rings and the Elves had the Three. This was not hidden knowledge and we can even suspect a communication between the Balrog and the Witch-King (or even Sauron).

 

[Ithrynluin]

How much Sauron and his minions knew of the Balrog of Moria is debatable. Why did they not "wake him up" and make use of him earlier? He would have been a great asset.

 

[gate7ole]

Did Sauron know that a Barlog existed until it was awaken? I don't think so.

 

[Flame of Anor]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Did Sauron know that a Barlog existed until it was awaken? I don't think so.

Sauron was a servant to Melkor, as was the balrog. Sauron did not know where all of his master's servants were.

As to the topic of the thread here is what I think:

As I see it, the Flame of Udûn was the "Flame"(some sort of life or being) of "Udûn"(being Melkor's stronhold). Flame of Udûn was the balrog's name. So if you look at Gandalf saying "wielder of the flame of Anor" maybe he is saying that there is an opposite to this beast and that he is that opposite. Udûn means 'underworld' in Sindarin. that would make Udûn a dark and presumibly disgusting place. Anor means 'sun' in Sindarin. this would mean that Anor is a place of light. these two things or places are polar opposites. the Balrog (Flame of Udûn) was servant to Melkor, and Gandalf (Olórin, who was Maiar of Manwë and Varda, and an Istari) was servant to Manwë. These would be enemies in their natural states as Maia. One servant of Good and the other servant of Evil.

-Flame