What Languages Can You Speak ? ( P.S. What dialect of language ? )

[Ireth Telrúnya]

It wasn't a long ago when I learned how Lancaster and Manchester are pronounced (something like Lan-ster and Mans-ter and the middle part of the word is not really said).

 

[Starflower]

those are not bad, wait til you get to Leicestershire and Gloucestershire ! And I have completely given up on all the Welsh names, they are all llllannwweallyth-type words, would like to learn it though, maybe I'll sign up for evenign classes or something

 

[Niniel]

I would really like to learn Irish or Welsh; actually I took a class in university in Old Irish and Middle Welsh, but it was quite hard to learn. The class lasted only 7 weeks, so we didn't get past basic grammar rules, but it was very interesting. Maybe I'll do a follow-up class as well.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Well I speak Finnish, as mother tongue. ...

Some silly questions to the Finns here: to what extent is English used in Finland (and other languages)? And when you read Tolkien, do you read him in English or use a Finnish translation — or is there such a thing? And if there is, how good is it?

I am impressed at how much better Europeans are with language usage than Americans. When it comes to handling more than one language, most of us Americans are bereft. Some, unfortunately, are even xenophobically proud of the fact that they only speak English, and expect everyone else to learn to speak it, rather than (God forbid) they should go to the trouble to learn the other fellow's language.

Spanish is the "main other" language here, but one hears many Asian languages spoken as well, although mainly from one native speaker to another. One must go into ethnic neighborhoods to see signage, for instance, in Spanish, Korean, Japanese, Thai, etc.

Lotho

 

[Lantarion]

Lotho, I posted a huge message relating to your previous post, but TTF was experiencing difficulties (or my computer was ) and it got erased.
Well, I'll answer it again then!

On Snaskrit: I think that it might be somehow, very distantly related; Finnish is descended, in large part, from the Indo-European and Germanic language groups (those and the Fenno-Ugric oddities and things from the North and from the Urals), and as Sanskrit is used in the area of the world where other languages were descended from the Indo-European language roots, I think it might be possible. Some words might even look similar! but I wouldn't know.
And on Quenya: Toklien himself did say that he based Quenya mostly on Finnish, as he did Sindarin on Welsh, and Tolkien was a great scholar of Finnish and I believe he even read the Kalevala in its original language!

On the use of English: Well, there is a growing minority of English-speakers who can actually speak the language fulently; there are quite a few International Baccalaureate (IB) schools all over Finland, where the teaching is all in English. I am in one, but lamentably some of our teachers are Finns and only have a sufficient knowledge of English to be able to speak it; taching is sometimes a little problematic, as is pronunciation and grammar.. But we get by.
A lot of Finns actually do learn to speak even commendable English at school (it is taught from the fourth grade up I believe), but it's the pronunciation and the ourageous accents which bother me. I don't hold it against them really, it's not like they can do that much about it, but it really annoys me sometimes.
A lot of jobs also require good knowledge of English, including stall-salesmen and cafe staff and the like.. So English is pretty widely used, though the quality of speech varies..
English is a bit like Latin in a way in Finland; it is used as a language of 'lore', or by people who want to show off, and many university books are in English.

 

[Arvedui]

Hmmm.... the Fins are all over this place I see.... Unfortunately I don't understand much of their language. Come to think of it, 'Olut' and 'Kippis' are probably the only words I know..

But I do speak both English and American fluent enough to pass as a resident of both nations.
I can also understand German, but I am not so sure if Germans can understand me.

Other than that, I can only a few phrases of this and that.
But I can do some rather good impersonations of Swedes and Danes speaking English. And Fins as well....

 

[Sarah]

Haha ! Pig latin ! That's some funny. Who invented that anyways ? I mean, um......oo...hay....um......uh......
Who invented that anyways ?

oohay inventedhay atthey anywayshay.

Not hard elfie!

 

[Lantarion]

Omg Arvedui! The only words you know in Finnish are 'beer' and 'cheers'! Hehehe...
I know them in Swedish but that's as close to you I can get. They would be öl and skål!
Haha you can impersonate a Finn speaking English? That's easy, just make sure you speak really haltingly and over-coherently.

Ig-latinay ishay ettypray unfray ootay eakspay!
Not exactly difficult.. There are several of these 'mock languages' in Finnish too; my favourite one is what's called the Vis-kieli, 'kieli' meaning 'language'.
You do the same as in Pig-Latin, just use the word 'vis' instead of 'ay'.
E.g. here is a normal sentence in Finnish: Minun lakkini on kadonnut ('My cap has gone missing')
Here it is in the Vis-tongue:
Mis-vinun las-vikki os-vin kas-vidonnut
It's really fun, but probably only if you can sdpeak Finnish.. :rolleys:
I actually had a friend who I knew for almost ten years called Johannes. His name in the Vis-tongue would be Jos-vihannes, which was a point of true hilarity for us all, because the word 'vihannes' means 'vegetable'!
Ah, good times..

 

[Starflower]

Some silly questions to the Finns here: to what extent is English used in Finland (and other languages)? And when you read Tolkien, do you read him in English or use a Finnish translation — or is there such a thing? And if there is, how good is it?

I am impressed at how much better Europeans are with language usage than Americans. When it comes to handling more than one language, most of us Americans are bereft. Some, unfortunately, are even xenophobically proud of the fact that they only speak English, and expect everyone else to learn to speak it, rather than (God forbid) they should go to the trouble to learn the other fellow's language.

Spanish is the "main other" language here, but one hears many Asian languages spoken as well, although mainly from one native speaker to another. One must go into ethnic neighborhoods to see signage, for instance, in Spanish, Korean, Japanese, Thai, etc.

Lotho

well English is a compulsory subject in school so everyone under 30 has at least some knowledge of english. Also most of the programs on TV are english or american and they are subtitled so you can hear the language, same goes for films in theaters, they are all subtitled. SO you can't really escape hearing english, and there is a significant english-speaking population in Finland, especially in the larger cities such as Helsinki ( the capital).
As to Tolkien, there does exist a finnish translation, it was published sometime in the sixties ( i don't have one i'm afraid so can't check), and it was thought very highly of by Prof Tolkien himself, who had some knowledge of finnish. English books are readily available at any bookstore, I personally like reading Tolkien in English,have done so for the last 15 years or so, but I haev read the Finnish one as well, and as I recall it was very good. it has kept the etymology of the names, such as Baggins, which has been translated into Finnish as Reppuli , which contains the stem reppu- meaning Bag-. Same goes for most of the English names in the books,for example Isengard is Rautapiha , which is a literal translation of the name.

 

[Arvedui]

Omg Arvedui! The only words you know in Finnish are 'beer' and 'cheers'! Hehehe...
I know them in Swedish but that's as close to you I can get. They would be öl and skål!

FYI, these are the same in norwegian, only olut is written øl.
I find it strange that I know those two words in a number of languages.....

 

[Starflower]

this letter ø and like are so strange, why can;t you norwegians just use ö instead

There is a Norske Sjomanns Kirke here in London, right next to the Finnish and the Swedish ones.

 

[Arvedui]

We prefer to be original, rather than copies of others....

There is a Norske Sjomanns Kirke here in London,

There are churches like that in a number of countries all over the world. there used to be a time when there were norwegian sailors to visit them, too. But those days have passed, and less and less norwegians work as merchant sailors. It is much cheaper for the Shipping agencies to hire people from the Far East... But there are still a lot of norwegian officers, and quite a lot of ships carry the norwegian flag.

 

[Lantarion]

Haha! When I was younger and living in England, me and my family used really often to visit the Finnish 'Seamans' Church'.. I would always remember being excited to go to the Merimieskirkko, because it always smelled of rye bread and Carelian pies, and everything was so Finnish there!

 

[Ireth Telrúnya]

I just bought "The Silmarillion" today from a bookstore here called "Readers" or something. They seemed to have quite a lot of books in English, also all the LotR books, but then... I have them all in just one book with the battle of the Helm's Deep on the cover!! (100 pages already covered from that one...)
And now that I'm reading, the language seems much easier than I remembered. I hardly need the dictionary when reading.

About English in Finland: many young people here oppose of having to learn Swedish at school but learning English seems to be a matter of honor for most. Maybe it is just that we Finns have a bit negative picture of Sweden for after all, it was the country that once ruled here for a long time...but if Finland wants to be a Scandinavian country it's essential for us to learn Swedish since Finnish is a very different language from all the other Scandinavian languages. Icelandic, Faeroese, Norwegian, Danish and Swedish are all related to each other but Finnish is a Finno-Ugrian or an Uralic language that has relatives in some small tribes in Russia. Hungarian and Estonian also belong to this Uralic language group.
Anyway, in my opinion, Swedish is the second official language here, but in truth, English is more like "the second official". There are more people here who can speak fluent English than fluent Swedish.

 

[Elbereth]

Well, I am from Northeastern United States. I spent the first half of my life in Maine...and then the second half in New York City. So, mainly I speak English (but of course ). I don't really have an accent per se...I've been told I have very clear American english... and many foreigners have complimented me on my English speech as they say it shows no trace of any specific accent at all (except it is clear that I'm an American when you hear me speak). However the dialects I can speak and understand are: New York, Spanglish, and Mainah

Now you all know how New Yorkers speak...that should go without saying...

Spanglish is basically a combination of Spanish and English in one sentence.

Such as: "Hey amiga! Let's go to the restaurant to get some arroz con pollo. Vamos chica! I'm muy hungry!"


Then there is Maine speech:

Here are the rules:

The "er" endings of words like "car", "lobster", and "Mainer" become replaced with "ah". For example, "car" becomes "cah", "lobster" becomes "lobstah", and "Mainer" becomes "Mainah".

Drop the "g" in words ending in "ing". "Fishing" becomes "fishin'" while "running" becomes "runnin'".

Stretch some one syllable words into two syllables. "You can't get they-uh from hee-uh".

Drag out the "a" and "e" sounds of some words. "Can't" becomes "cahn't" while "calf" becomes "cahf".

Now here are a few key Maine phrases:

Away - Anywhere south of Kittery.

Ayuh - Usually meaning yes, but also to describe someone wicked borin'.

Cah - Anything other than a truck with four wheels.

Crittah - Any fur bearing animal.

Gawmy - Clumsy, Awkward.

Lobstah - Favorite food of Mainers and those people from Away.

Mowah - As opposed to less.

Summah - A few days in August.

Wicked - Can be said almost every sentance, usually followed by the word good.

Wonduh - A confused state. Ex. I wonduh whey-yuh I pahked the cah.

Wun't - Wasn't. Ex. Wun't that lobstah wicked good?

Yessah - "Yes Sir". Applies to either a man or a woman."

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

FYI, these are the same in norwegian, only olut is written øl.
I find it strange that I know those two words in a number of languages.....

We remember what interests us...

Haha! When I was younger and living in England, me and my family used really often to visit the Finnish 'Seamans' Church'.. I would always remember being excited to go to the Merimieskirkko, because it always smelled of rye bread and Carelian pies, and everything was so Finnish there!

Ah now, what is a Carelian pie, and what is the recipe?

...Swedish is the second official language here, but in truth, English is more like "the second official". There are more people here who can speak fluent English than fluent Swedish.

The only thing I know in Swedish is something I can't repeat here. But it starts with "Svenska flicka..."

Well, I am from Northeastern United States. I spent the first half of my life in Maine...and then the second half in New York City.
So, mainly I speak English (but of course ). I don't really have an accent per se...I've been told I have very clear American english...

After spending all that time in Maine and NY???!!! Wow!

I used to teach in a school with a high concentration of Spanglish speakers, kids who were L.A. Hispanic. They were "linguistically ambidextrous," switching from English to Spanish and back again several times in one sentence, certainly many times in a conversation, in order to make a point or an emphasis to what they were saying.

Thanks for the disquisition on Maine English! (I remember a young woman from Maine in the early days of my Air Force hitch, who told me that Mainers pronounce potato as "p'teyta," with the "ey" being held long.)

Lotho

 

[Starflower]

Ah now, what is a Carelian pie, and what is the recipe?

Lotho

Carelian Pies

very basically, they are pies, made with rice porridge in rye crust. They take a while to make, obviously in Finland you would buy some ready from the shop and just heat them up. You can eat them hot or cold, with any topping you prefer, ham, cheese etc, or traditionally with egg mayonnaise.
I miss them......... *sigh* maybe I'm due a visit to the seamen's mission....

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Carelian Pies

very basically, they are pies, made with rice porridge in rye crust. They take a while to make, obviously in Finland you would buy some ready from the shop and just heat them up. You can eat them hot or cold, with any topping you prefer, ham, cheese etc, or traditionally with egg mayonnaise.
I miss them......... *sigh* maybe I'm due a visit to the seamen's mission....

Sounds like!

Thank you for the recipe. However when I went to the site the recipe was all mixed up with a lot of HTML coding that made it hard to extract from the rest of the text. However after working with it for a few minutes in my word processor I came up with this:

CARELIAN PIES (16 pieces)

Filling: 300 ml water
200 ml porridge rice
700 ml milk
3⁄4 teaspoon salt

The crust: 100 ml cold water
1⁄2 teaspoon salt
150 ml rye flour
100 ml wheat flour
1 teaspoon vegetable oil

Moistening: 75 ml milk
25g margarine or butter

1.Stir the rice in boiling water, add milk and stir until the porridge starts to boil. Let it simmer under the lid at low temperature until it is well done. Stir now and then. Add some salt and let the porridge cool.

2.Mix in cold water salt, flour and vegetable oil. Work the dough even with your hands.

3.Make the dough into a bar and divide it into 16 parts. Roll the pieces into
balls, and then make them flat. Roll them into round pie crusts, 17 cms in diametre. Spread some rye flour on the crusts.

4.Make the pies one by one. Remove the flour on the crusts and spread some filling on them. Lift the edges towards the middle and crumple with your index fingers so that the pie will get its shape.

5.Put the pies on a baking sheet side by side and bake them in the middle part of the oven at the temperature of 300 degrees for 15-20 minutes. The pies will be well done when there is colour in them.

6.Dip the pies into a hot liquid of milk and fat and put them on each other in a bowl to soften. Cover them with baking paper and a cloth.

7.Serve the pies together with egg butter.

Is this right? (I'll have to do something to convert from the metric system to the degenerate American system of ounces/pounds, but that's a minor challenge.)

Evidently we lost some jpegs in the process, pity, I would like to have seen what the site was supposed to have looked like. Thanks again!

(Now what is egg butter? And are those temperatures Fahrenheit or Celsius?)

Lotho

 

[Lantarion]

'Egg butter' or munavoi, is just that: it's basically normal butter mixed with egg, and mixed into a lovely spread or paste. Yum I actually have some Karjalan piirakoita downstairs, I'm gonna go eat some!
Hehe great job with the recipe there, I wouldn't know if it was corect or not because I've never made them myself; oh and all tempereatures in Finland are in Celsius.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

'Egg butter' or munavoi, is just that: it's basically normal butter mixed with egg, and mixed into a lovely spread or paste. Yum I actually have some Karjalan piirakoita downstairs, I'm gonna go eat some!
Hehe great job with the recipe there, I wouldn't know if it was correct or not because I've never made them myself; oh and all tempereatures in Finland are in Celsius.

You stalwart Finns — evidently the harsh winters make you fearless of cholesterol! We Americans shrink at the thought! (And then go ahead anyway)

Are you talking about mixing butter with raw or cooked eggs? :::cringing at the possible answer:::

Lotho