What was the biggest cause of tragedies in Turin Turambar's life?

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

If he did, he'd fall. Would that such Fate not befall him!

Have you no hope? I think that Baron would be a match for him-- with aid from the Valar (of course)!

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

Have you no hope? I think that Baron would be a match for him-- with aid from the Valar (of course)!

Perhaps. Yet still, it shall be a feat of difficulty and much hardship, for the creatures of Morgoth are not so swiftly felled.

 

[Elthir]

There has been no Dagor Dagorath as all that you [Turin Turambar] claim is only part of a Prophecy (which may or may not be accurate).

"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared." Christopher Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring

Christopher Tolkien is usually taken pretty seriously with respect to his father's work, and indeed this statement is backed up by description from JRRT himself. For example, see the conclusion to Quenta Silmarillion (1977 Silmarillion) with respect to what Mandos does not declare.

In short, in the revised scenario, Mandos makes no such prophecy.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared.".

Not yet in my heart and féa.

 

[Elthir]

Distinction: abandoning the Second Prophecy of Mandos is not the same thing as abandoning the Dagor Dagorath or Arda Healed.

It was the prophecy -- uttered by a "god" -- that was abandoned by JRRT. There are other factors to consider here, but for now, this is why Christopher Tolkien can be so definitive about (a part of) a
somewhat complicated matter.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Not yet in my heart and féa.

You really do have a great deal of faith in Namo, and his prophecies, but why?

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

You really do have a great deal of faith in Namo, and his prophecies, but why?

Why, you ask? Because Námo's prophecies are ne'er inaccurate, or at least it hath seemed. Ne'er shall they be lost, e'en if they seem forgotten.

 

[Gothmog]

"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared." Christopher Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring

Christopher Tolkien is usually taken pretty seriously with respect to his father's work, and indeed this statement is backed up by description from JRRT himself. For example, see the conclusion to Quenta Silmarillion (1977 Silmarillion) with respect to what Mandos does not declare.

In short, in the revised scenario, Mandos makes no such prophecy.

However, I was simply pointing out that Turin_Turambar keeps using the Dagor Dagorath as something that has already happened whereas it does not matter if it was a Doom of Mandos or a prophecy by Adreth as he as also hinted at, it is still a Prophecy and something that is in the future if it happens at all. So claiming that Turin has killed Melkor is wrong.

 

[Elthir]

I'd guess that some folks would raise the idea that a prophecy from Mandos himself is likely to come true, and running on from there, essentially treat it as "fact" in any case.

1) What do any of the Valar say about the End Times?
2) What do the Elves believe about the End Times?
3) Are there any Mannish myths about the End Times?

In a sense, for Quenta Silmarillion at least, Tolkien revises the "answer" to the first question: Mandos will not declare if any change will come to Arda Marred, and Manwe and Varda may know: "but they have not revealed it."

And even Andreth does not prophecy about the End Times.

 

[Gothmog]

I'd guess that some folks would raise the idea that a prophecy from Mandos himself is likely to come true, and running on from there, essentially treat it as "fact" in any case.

1) What do any of the Valar say about the End Times?
2) What do the Elves believe about the End Times?
3) Are there any Mannish myths about the End Times?

In a sense, for Quenta Silmarillion at least, Tolkien revises the "answer" to the first question: Mandos will not declare if any change will come to Arda Marred, and Manwe and Varda may know: "but they have not revealed it."

And even Andreth does not prophecy about the End Times.

It does not matter if a prophecy is certain to happen, treating it as already happened is still wrong. Claiming that something has happened when there is no indication of how long it is before the prophecy comes to fruition means that I can spend as much money as I want now because it has been prophesied I will win the lottery. Even if it was a Doom of Mandos, it is not commanded by Eru and also involves Man therefore is not immutable. The Music is as Fate to all except Eru and Men.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Well this has strayed from the topic...

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

Well this has strayed from the topic...

And by Námo's influence it has! What a rarity!

 

[Elthir]

It does not matter if a prophecy is certain to happen, treating it as already happened is still wrong.

I wasn't defending Turin_Turambar's position (if it is his position, see below), or anyone else who takes it -- but merely noting that some will no doubt (as I've seen over the years) treat the Prophecy as fact because it is Mandos.

And I'm adding (have added) that there is no Second Prophecy from Mandos in any case!

And, was Turin_Turambar actually claiming that the Battle of Battles has already happened (in the post you responded to in this thread), or was he simply using language that makes it seem that way, because he appears to treat the Prophecy as a fact.

Or something else!

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

And by Námo's influence it has! What a rarity!

That is rare indeed!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Or something else!

Can we talk about Khamul?

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Can we talk about Khamul?

I hear Balrogs have wings

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I hear Balrogs have wings

THAT is a controversial topic...

 

[Gothmog]

I wasn't defending Turin_Turambar's position (if it is his position, see below), or anyone else who takes it -- but merely noting that some will no doubt (as I've seen over the years) treat the Prophecy as fact because it is Mandos.

And I'm adding (have added) that there is no Second Prophecy from Mandos in any case!

And, was Turin_Turambar actually claiming that the Battle of Battles has already happened (in the post you responded to in this thread), or was he simply using language that makes it seem that way, because he appears to treat the Prophecy as a fact.

Or something else!

Perhaps you should read it again

oh my dear friend turin is the murderer of morgoth but everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill morgoth alone and got the help of tulkas. turin just delivers the last fatal blow. tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together. so it's not actually a one on one fight like fingolfin. so Turin slaying Morgoth is no great feat.

As you can see, Turin_Turambar states quite clearly "turin is the murderer", "everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill", "tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together."
To consider the prophecy as "Fact" you also have to consider that the prophecy is in the "Future" and the words used would reflect this. "turing will be", "turin will kill", "turin will defeat". Turin_Turambar's words clearly are those of something that happened in the past and therefore of a prophecy that has already been fulfilled. Despite your continued statements about the second prophecy of Mandos being removed by JRRT this is not the first time this point has been used in this same manner.

I will add that ALL languages are "made up" but communication depends on the mutual agreement of the meaning of individual words. To quote another character "That word you are using I don't think it means what you think it means".

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

THAT is a controversial topic...

Would that such a topic not be spoken of again until Fading Bound of Time's Last End...

 

[Elthir]

Perhaps you should read it again

I had read it again -- which is why I said Turin_Turambar "seems" to be talking about the Dagor Dagorath as if it has already happened (meaning that he does write that way, but perhaps does
not really think this).

I will add that ALL languages are "made up" but communication depends on the mutual agreement of the meaning of individual words. To quote another character "That word you are using I don't think it means what you think it means".

I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt -- that by treating the prophecy as a fact, Turin_Turambar might simply be employing a tense that is technically off.