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What was the biggest cause of tragedies in Turin Turambar's life?

What was the biggest cause of tragedies in Turin Turambar's life?

  • his stubbornness and arrogance

    Votes: 8 40.0%

  • the curse of morgoth

    Votes: 10 50.0%

  • the lies and magic of dragon glaurung

    Votes: 1 5.0%

  • his wrong decisions

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • his not marrying finduilas

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • other reasons

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Total voters
    20
Gothmog said:
There has been no Dagor Dagorath as all that you [Turin Turambar] claim is only part of a Prophecy (which may or may not be accurate).
Click to expand...

"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared." Christopher Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring

Christopher Tolkien is usually taken pretty seriously with respect to his father's work, and indeed this statement is backed up by description from JRRT himself. For example, see the conclusion to Quenta Silmarillion (1977 Silmarillion) with respect to what Mandos does not declare.

In short, in the revised scenario, Mandos makes no such prophecy.
 
Distinction: abandoning the Second Prophecy of Mandos is not the same thing as abandoning the Dagor Dagorath or Arda Healed.

It was the prophecy -- uttered by a "god" -- that was abandoned by JRRT. There are other factors to consider here, but for now, this is why Christopher Tolkien can be so definitive about (a part of) a
somewhat complicated matter.
 
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However, I was simply pointing out that Turin_Turambar keeps using the Dagor Dagorath as something that has already happened whereas it does not matter if it was a Doom of Mandos or a prophecy by Adreth as he as also hinted at, it is still a Prophecy and something that is in the future if it happens at all. So claiming that Turin has killed Melkor is wrong.
 
I'd guess that some folks would raise the idea that a prophecy from Mandos himself is likely to come true, and running on from there, essentially treat it as "fact" in any case.

1) What do any of the Valar say about the End Times?
2) What do the Elves believe about the End Times?
3) Are there any Mannish myths about the End Times?

In a sense, for Quenta Silmarillion at least, Tolkien revises the "answer" to the first question: Mandos will not declare if any change will come to Arda Marred, and Manwe and Varda may know: "but they have not revealed it."

And even Andreth does not prophecy about the End Times.
 
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It does not matter if a prophecy is certain to happen, treating it as already happened is still wrong. Claiming that something has happened when there is no indication of how long it is before the prophecy comes to fruition means that I can spend as much money as I want now because it has been prophesied I will win the lottery. Even if it was a Doom of Mandos, it is not commanded by Eru and also involves Man therefore is not immutable. The Music is as Fate to all except Eru and Men.
 
Gothmog said:
It does not matter if a prophecy is certain to happen, treating it as already happened is still wrong.
Click to expand...

I wasn't defending Turin_Turambar's position (if it is his position, see below), or anyone else who takes it -- but merely noting that some will no doubt (as I've seen over the years) treat the Prophecy as fact because it is Mandos.

And I'm adding (have added) that there is no Second Prophecy from Mandos in any case!

And, was Turin_Turambar actually claiming that the Battle of Battles has already happened (in the post you responded to in this thread), or was he simply using language that makes it seem that way, because he appears to treat the Prophecy as a fact.

Or something else!
 
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Perhaps you should read it again
As you can see, Turin_Turambar states quite clearly "turin is the murderer", "everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill", "tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together."
To consider the prophecy as "Fact" you also have to consider that the prophecy is in the "Future" and the words used would reflect this. "turing will be", "turin will kill", "turin will defeat". Turin_Turambar's words clearly are those of something that happened in the past and therefore of a prophecy that has already been fulfilled. Despite your continued statements about the second prophecy of Mandos being removed by JRRT this is not the first time this point has been used in this same manner.

I will add that ALL languages are "made up" but communication depends on the mutual agreement of the meaning of individual words. To quote another character "That word you are using I don't think it means what you think it means".
 
Gothmog said:
Perhaps you should read it again
Click to expand...

I had read it again -- which is why I said Turin_Turambar "seems" to be talking about the Dagor Dagorath as if it has already happened (meaning that he does write that way, but perhaps does
not really think this).


I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt -- that by treating the prophecy as a fact, Turin_Turambar might simply be employing a tense that is technically off.
 
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