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What would be the ideal movie of LotR?

Talimon

Active Member
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Apr 25, 2002
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I notice that often times the arguements between the purists and the movie fans run circles around the same issue, yet always fail to address it. So I thought I'd start a thread where we could discuss this, head on.

Basically what I want to get at is this: What would be the absolute ideal version of a LotR movie, in your opinion? You don't have to get into specific scenes, but just talk about how one might go about making it. Forget logistics here, forget studios, forget all of that. We're talking about an ideal.

However, I do believe that two limits aught to be made here. One, time limits. I think, just from an artistic stand-point, that no movie should go beyond 3 1/2 hours, 4 at the absolute most. If you believe that LotR aught to be made in more then 3 movies, state so. The second limit, the way I see it, should be accessibility. This doesn't necessarily mean "dumbing down" the movie, but just making a movie that someone with absolutely no knowledge of LotR can approach, understand, and hopefully enjoy and be moved by. The movie shouldn't assume it's audience to have any previous knowledge about anything.

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So, what would I do? Just generally speaking, I think having 3 movies is a good format. I also believe that 3 1/2 hours, done right, is plenty for each movie. Here is where I think I defer from PJ, however. Instead of changing scenes, which PJ does so often, I'd follow this rule: If at all possible, scenes should only be cut, not changed. In other words, I'd cut as many scenes as seems necessary, but I wouldn't actually add anything. Perhaps, for a few scattered occasions, I'd move dialogue around a bit from one scene to another, as PJ does quite often. But that would be used sparringly. And here is the key part: Keep the dialogue the same!!!. Maybe it's just me, but I'm of the opinion that Tolkiens dialogue is perfection. It is so flawless, witty, and elegant, that I don't see the point in changing it, or trying to modernize it. I feel that Tolkien "modernized" it as is, meaning that it wasn't all written in old English (which might have been the case, were he writting it a hundred years earlier). I'll admit, some of Tolkiens passages of dialogue are way too long for film. But remember what I said: cut, don't change. As such, this would simply become a matter of squeezing out the most important pieces of dialogue from each exchange, and leaving out the elements that aren't suitable for film.

There is a certain level where I feel changes, indeed additions, are appropriate. This is rarely in the dialogue department, however. For example, I thought the begginning of the movie, with Frodo joining Gandalf on the cart, was a perfect way to introduce both charachters, and much more cinematic then the book. These kind of changes are great, indeed they add to the movie, without actually deminishing anything. The real key here, in my opinion, is to use Tolkiens dialogue. There is something about the feel of his wording that is extremely distinct and recognizable. I think it would just be bliss to have a movie as visually and aurally beautiful as PJ's, with the actors speaking Tolkiens exact words.
 
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When I think of a movie of LotR in the idea of a page to page visualisation, I always think of the four hours movie 'Hamlet' by Kenneth Branagh. Very cool to see, once. And really only once. I couldn't possible survive a second time.
Now, if I picture the story of Hamlet, with the actual dialogue, but with a lot of pieces of especially monologue left out, I think this movie would be a lot more enjoyable. I know it's not the best comparison, but maybe you'll understand what I mean. I like to read the plays by Shakespeare, but watching an actor going over each and every page of it, on screen......
Your post about doing LotR with the original dialogue, as written by Tolkien, sounds fantastic to me. The latest movie on LotR (actually FotR) I've seen, was visually incredible. It looked like ME, it looked like a lving, breathing, inhabited ME. When the actors used the wordings used by Tolkien, I felt like I was reading the book again. When they didn't, it felt like watching a movie. A darn good looking movie, with great actors. Four hours is too long, 3 1/2 hours is really the maximum of any movie, especially in the theatre. I have to agree with your viewpoint. Try to leave out things, change as little as possible. 'Move' dialogue in order to give the information needed, without needing three or four scenes.

I know how it must sound for PJ, here behind my PC, having the possibility to look back. But it's just my opinion, about an already great movie. With flaws I have an opinion about as well.:D
 
I think a sort of 'mini series' would be a more appropriate format to bring LOTR to life on screen. You're right...even though hardcore fans like you and me might go to see a 4 or 5 hour movie, most people would not. Without thinking about technology or budget restrictions...use live action actors, cgi special effects, etc. I would make it 6 2-3 hour sections...or break it up further into 12 1.5-2 hour sections. Follow the book directly, scene for scene. At parts where dialogue is used to describe events of history or some other goings on, visually show what is being talked about, with voice over narration when necessary...particularly as Gandalf describes the Rings of Power, etc, to Frodo, and all the stories that are told at the council of Elrond. Perhaps even have an over-all narrator for certain parts (like galadriel during the prologue of the movie). Absolutely positively keep all the dialogue in its written state, no 'modernisation' of language...though some lines may potentially be moved or cut in favor of visualisations where appropriate.

For people totally unfamiliar with LOTR, it would be as close to watching the book as humanly possible. No dumbing down or modernisation or changing of story elements is necessary for that...a person reading the books for the first time would also have no previous knowledge of anything. If they would enjoy the books, they would enjoy the movie/series as well. If not, oh well. :) we're not concerned about studios, funding, budgets, or anything like that. So a movie By Tolkien fans, For Tolkien fans, and consisting of nothing but Tolkien.
 
Originally posted by Talimon
....Here is where I think I defer from PJ, however. Instead of changing scenes, which PJ does so often, I'd follow this rule: If at all possible, scenes should only be cut, not changed. In other words, I'd cut as many scenes as seems necessary, but I wouldn't actually add anything. Perhaps, for a few scattered occasions, I'd move dialogue around a bit from one scene to another, as PJ does quite often. But that would be used sparingly. And here is the key part: Keep the dialogue the same!!!. Maybe it's just me, but I'm of the opinion that Tolkien's dialogue is perfection....
The real key here, in my opinion, is to use Tolkien's dialogue. There is something about the feel of his wording that is extremely distinct and recognisable. I think it would just be bliss to have a movie as visually and aurally beautiful as PJ's, with the actors speaking Tolkien's exact words.
....I thought the beginning of the movie, with Frodo joining Gandalf on the cart, was a perfect way to introduce both characters, and much more cinematic than the book....
Can this be Talimon? If it is, can he be serious??
It is precisely what everyone on this "side" has been saying all along.
T's dialogue IS (close to) perfection; "my captain, my king", for example, isn't.
That feeling IS the point; when you hear the Tolkien lines you know it's him, when it's someone else's you know it isn't. As DG says "When the actors used the wordings used by Tolkien, I felt like I was reading the book again. When they didn't, it felt like watching a movie.
We have to differ on the opening scene though: it looked pretty and would have fitted perfectly into some children's story, but it wasn't T's, and it did NOT introduce F's and G's real characters, in either their book or their film form. "more cinematic" than what in the book? There are plenty of book scenes that could have done the introduction accurately and still been perfectly cinematic.
 
Originally posted by Leto
I think a sort of 'mini series' would be a more appropriate format ....
I would make it 6 2-3 hour sections...
Tolkien did the job for us already! LOTR isn't really a trilogy; it's six books, divided into three books purely for the sake of the publishers.
Six 2-hour films, using T's words as closely as possible and making any essential changes in language that matches his (in contrast to some of PJ's writers), and combining scenes occasionally and carefully (as PJ does for Boromir's death), would produce that ideal film version of the 20th century's single greatest work- discuss!
 
exactly...six books. But to make it more 'watcheable', perhaps cut it even further into 12 segments. 12 episodes of 2 hours each would make sure that there was time to include everything in the books, and to do it properly...and if you wanted to, you could watch 24 hours straight of Tolkien! What a great festival that would be!
 
Originally posted by Talimon
Instead of changing scenes, which PJ does so often, I'd follow this rule: If at all possible, scenes should only be cut, not changed. In other words, I'd cut as many scenes as seems necessary, but I wouldn't actually add anything..... And here is the key part: Keep the dialogue the same!!!. Maybe it's just me, but I'm of the opinion that Tolkiens dialogue is perfection. It is so flawless, witty, and elegant, that I don't see the point in chaning it, or trying to modernize it.

:confused:
Okay, who are you and what did you do with Talimon?

Were you not the one who claimed that Tolkien's dialogue wouldn't work most of the time? Wasn't this one of the reasons that you slammed Bakshi, because he stayed too close to the book? Are you not the one who praised all the "changes" in some form?

You are confusing us!

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I think that the six 2 hour episodes would be good. Other than cutting out certain scenes (like Bombadil and much of the singing parts), I think (with a little bit of tweaking with the dialogue), Tolkien's story could stand as is on the screen. I think that you could follow the dialogue and make the existing scenes action packed and keep it exciting.
 
LOL. That's what I mean by running around the bush :).

Notice what I claimed in the original post: "Forget logistics here, forget studios." When I defend PJ's movie, I defend it not because it is in my opinion the "perfect" version of LotR, but because it is in my opinion an incredible film, following the book on many occasions. I also accept the sad reality that studios will never accept a script with Tolkiens language. They rarely do so for any type of movie, but when they occasionally do it's some sort of historical film. For fantasy, keep dreaming. The problem with Tolkiens book, film-wise, is that it has an incredibly complex story, but at the same time requires a tremendous budget. When trying to get money for a movie, complexity is ussually a hinderance. It doesn't help that in this case we are talking about one of the most complex stories ever written, and yet one of the most demanding budget-wise. Knowing this, and knowing the kinds of changes studios are so notorious for making, I was/am extremely happy with PJ's movie. Let's just say that I have a very creative imagination when it comes to the evil-doings of studios ;). I had many unfortunate changes working out in my head...PJ's movie still surprises me with some of the stuff it keeps from Tolkien.

Also, when I watch PJ's movie I watch it first as a movie, secondly as an adaptation. It scores very highly as a movie, and as an adaptation of Tolkiens book it is still the best around, by far (I'm sure lilhobo will disagree here, however :)). That doesn't say much, perhaps, but it is still the best way for me to visit Middle-earth visually and aurally (short of my imagination).

Finally, I judge the movie for what it is. Yes, an adaptation of Tolkiens book, but not a slavish one. I firmly believe that the movie, simply by the way it's made, never claims to be a slavish adaptation. And I simply cannot accuse it of being (or not being) something it isn't. As I've stated, I view it as a liberal adaptation of Tolkiens books, but still maintaining the essential themes (the way I see them).

This all doesn't mean, however, that it is the perfect LotR movie ("perfect" = the best possible way to tell FotR in 3 hours). It doesn't even mean that I necessarily think it's the best way to make a LotR movie in general. It just means that I can see where it's coming from, the kind of pressures it has from studios, fans, and perhaps most importantly (commercially) non-fans. People forget that the movie had to get non-Tolkien readers into the theatre. Yes, in the ideal world it could do this based on it's charachter-development/story, but nothing is ideal. Nontheless I still credit it for what is in my opinion a lot of charachter development for a movie advertised as an "action/adventure".

When the actors used the wordings used by Tolkien, I felt like I was reading the book again. When they didn't, it felt like watching a movie. A darn good looking movie, with great actors.

Yes, great sets, great music, great cinematography, great costumes, great CGI, and almost always great dialogue (by the average movies standards). I am not changing my opinion here about the movie when I state that the dialogue should have been kept the same. Because I love PJ's movie to death, for more reasons then just LotR. It is in my opinion the "next Star Wars", a trilogy that fans can savor, line up for at midnight opening day, and just know that it will be good. That doesn't happen very often.

I am not criticizing the movie for not having truer dialogue, because it's just not that type of movie. All I am saying is that ideally I'd have a movie with truer dialogue.

I think a sort of 'mini series' would be a more appropriate format to bring LOTR to life on screen.

I have to disagree here. I love mini-series, and I admit that some "serious" ones have surfaced as of late (Band of Brothers, in my opinion). But LotR, PJ has proven to me, has to be seen on the big screen. Also, after having watched the movie so many times, I believe that having it be in the "Book 1, Book 2" order would hurt it as a movie. I think 3 movies is perfect. At most have them be 4 hours each, with a 10 minute break at the two hour mark.

I do not think every scene of LotR is filmable, at least not in the same way Tolkien wrote it. There are some scenes in LotR that simply shouldn't be in a movie, due to thier style. I still agree with Terry Brooks here: an adaptation shouldn't replace a book. It should complement it. As such, I don't have any regrets about seeing scenes cut, so long as they don't add anything worthwhile to the mix.

Don't get me wrong: I love a lot of the creative interpretation PJ did. I'm all for that. I'm just saying that for me, the absolute ideal would have been to keep the dialogue the same. I want there to be a creative genius between the book and film, however. I really don't like Harry Potter because of that: there is no director involved, really, and as such a lot of scenes don't feel nearly as inspired as PJ's.
 
Originally posted by Talimon
I also accept the sad reality that studios will never accept a script with Tolkiens language.
Sorry, I don't believe you: there's a script already that's mostly Tolkien's language - it's called Fellowship of the Ring, directed by P Jackson.
Do you really believe they'd reject a film because it was, say 98%, of T's language? How would they know anyway?!
 
Originally posted by joxy
Sorry, I don't believe you: there's a script already that's mostly Tolkien's language - it's called Fellowship of the Ring, directed by P Jackson.
Do you really believe they'd reject a film because it was, say 98%, of T's language? How would they know anyway?!

PJ's movie doesn't use Tolkiens language as often you'd think. It's ussually heavily edited and rearranged. I know, many quotes are there, but the dialogue is quite different from Tolkiens. I am in no denial about this, indeed I accept it. On the other hand, I don't believe anything sticks out in the movie. Yes, it all sticks out from Tolkien to a certain degree, but I don't believe the edited dialogue does this any less then the new dialogue. It's all quite different (though consistent within itself, in my opinion).
 
Originally posted by Talimon
PJ's movie doesn't use Tolkiens language as often you'd think. It's usually heavily edited and rearranged. I know, many quotes are there, but the dialogue is quite different from Tolkiens....
On the other hand, I don't believe anything sticks out in the movie. Yes, it all sticks out from Tolkien to a certain degree, but I don't believe the edited dialogue does this any less then the new dialogue.
It's all quite different (though consistent within itself, in my opinion).
It's not what I think; it's what I KNOW. I haven't sat through the film with a stop-watch and a volume of Tolkien (yet!), but there isn't all that much dialogue anyway, and I have heard so much that IS original that I claim a substantial majority as original- whether re-positioned or re-ordered or whatever.
It is precisely because so much IS original that the bad bits of new dialogue DO stick out so clearly - they look at you and hit you in the face, like that whippy branch on poor Arwen's! Of course the edited dialogue doesnt stick out, if it's original!
So - it is NOT quite different; it is just different enough to be irritating, occasionally - and not unbearably by a long way!
 
Originally posted by joxy

It is precisely because so much IS original that the bad bits of new dialogue DO stick out so clearly - they look at you and hit you in the face, like that whippy branch on poor Arwen's! Of course the edited dialogue doesnt stick out, if it's original!

Hmm...joxy has a point, Talimon. Alot of the dialogue was straight from Tolkien and it FIT the movie nicely. Because of this, such witty and well thought out dialogue such as "Let's hunt some orc", "If you want him come and claim him", "nobody tosses a dwarf", "I'll die before I see the ring on an elf's finger", "give us the hafling, she-elf", and "I'll have at you, Longshanks", stand out sorely like a nun in a brothel and are extremely cheesy next to the original language that was taken from Tolkien....
 
Originally posted by Thorin
Hmm...joxy has a point, Talimon. Alot of the dialogue was straight from Tolkien and it FIT the movie nicely. Because of this, such witty and well thought out dialogue such as "Let's hunt some orc", "If you want him come and claim him", "nobody tosses a dwarf", "I'll die before I see the ring on an elf's finger", "give us the hafling, she-elf", and "I'll have at you, Longshanks", stand out sorely like a nun in a brothel and are extremely cheesy next to the original language that was taken from Tolkien....

Trust me when I tell you that those lines, while no favorites, certainly aren't the only difference between the dialogue being Tolkien and otherwise. I'd quote some stuff from the book, but you'd be better off just reading it yourself :). I'm thinking in specific about a lot of the scenes in Rivendell and the Shire, perhaps even Bree. PJ uses a minimalist approach, which is to say that he'll cut as much dialogue as possible, and keep only what he feels is effective. Tolkien is almost the opposite, going into great depths with the passages of his charachters. And yet this depth is not just a matter of length. It is also a matter of composition. The way he wrote some of those passages of dialgoue just calls for them to be spoken exactly as is.

I also feel that the film could benefit from having more dialogue, in general. One of the reasons I am so excited about the EE is that I will actually get to hear these charachters talk more. They simply don't talk enough. :) It just seems that with so much great dialogue to choose from a lot more could have theoretically made it in. I'm no film-maker, or script-writer, but I can see many scenes from the book working out perfectly for screen.

By the way, those quotes, like some of the cheesy lines from the original Star Wars, end up getting better with age. Not thier quality, just thier novelty :). After a while the film almost seems as though it would be missing something without them. But that may just be the result of me watching FotR one too many times :).
 
I wonder about those mini-series. Currently, Band of Brothers is on TV for the second time this year, and me and my brother are watching it again. A great serie.
I really wonder if LotR could be done that way. The six books cover all the characters, and in TT, you read about events taking place at the same time much later in the story. I don't think a serie would be very good if one stuck to the original story like that.
 
I decided a mini-series format wold be better, because I understand that the time constraints put on a movie are just too great...there just isn't enough time to get through the whole story, with the detail that I would expect for my 'ideal' version of LOTR. I would love it on the big screen...but make it six movies instead of three. For reference, I look at 'Dune'. That horrible movie from the eighties was not unlike PJ's movie...(though I admit LOTR movie was much much better in quality)...but it is a comparable situation. Here you have a movie adaptation of the book that is to Sci Fi what LOTR is to fantasy. (almost) It is far too short (even in the 'long' version), and instead of simply cutting down scenes for the movie, new elements were added to the story. Admittedly, the 2000 'Dune' miniseries, from the sci fi channel, also added some scenes that were not in the book. But it did a 100% better job with the story, and was long enough to actually get through most of the book. It could still be done better...but the idea of the miniseries worked well here. It's really one long movie, just broken down for the short attention span of the consuming public.
 
I think it would be good to cut between the two story lines in TTT and ROTK. Without changing anything, just arranging them in a way that is close to being chronologically accurate. It will all work out, since The climax of both story lines are occuring at the same time...(mount doom and battle of the morannon)
 
I saw that Dune movie once, after I had read the (first) book. Hilarious! Thank someone/something that PJ didn't do anything like that to LotR.
I've read about this serie, but it hasn't been shown on Dutch TV. I would really like to see that in order to imagine how LotR would work as a serie.
And yes, one has to combine the two books of TT in order to create something that works on the screen.
 
Originally posted by Talimon
Trust me when I tell you that those lines, while no favorites, certainly aren't the only difference between the dialogue being Tolkien and otherwise. I'd quote some stuff from the book, but you'd be better off just reading it yourself....
The way he wrote some of those passages of dialogue just calls for them to be spoken exactly as is.
I also feel that the film could benefit from having more dialogue, in general.
....those quotes, like some of the cheesy lines from the original Star Wars, end up getting better with age. Not their quality, just their novelty.
You're good at telling people things they're not going to believe!:)
Nobody said they're the ONLY difference; they are six of the worst, and anyone could add to them, but they still don't add up to all that much of a total in terms of number or time - just in terms of irritation factor!
Language was Tolkien's subject, and he spent 20 years and innumerable drafts in getting the words he wanted exactly right before publishing. So, of course the passages call for being spoken exactly "as is"!
As I said, the film does not have a great amount of dialogue anyway, and so again of course you arre right that more would be a benefit.
And the day when I find orc-hunting and the rest getting better I will give up FOTR altogether and maybe get to see Star Wars for the first time! (But I see what you mean....and thanks for acknowledging the "cheesy"!!)
 

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