Where are the 🧌orcs made in lord of the rings?

[Manwe]

Where are the orcs made in lord of the rings? And is there a difference between the books and the film adaptions?

 

[Ent]

Orcs were first bred by Melkor in the Elder Days and first appeared some time after the awakening of the Quendi.
Sauron is never said to have 'bred' Orcs.

Orcs were said to "multiply like flies" and those that escaped destruction in the defeat of Morgoth spread far and wide, and continued to multiply.

Saruman however 'made' (bred) some new kinds of Orcs in his pits at Isengard - a bigger kind (probably cross-bred with Men) who were tolerant to the Daylight.

The term "bred" or "breed" is only used once in the written LoTR with regard to Orcs - and that is regarding Saruman's work 'by his foul arts'.

There is no difference between the books and the Film Adaptations. Sauron is not shown to 'make' (breed) any new Orcs, though Saruman is.

 

[Manwe]

Orcs were first bred by Melkor in the Elder Days and first appeared some time after the awakening of the Quendi.
Sauron also made them in his place for Melkor.
After that, I do not believe Sauron made any more.
They were said to "multiply like flies" and those that escaped destruction in the defeat of Morgoth spread far and wide, and continued to multiply, awaiting Sauron's return.

Saruman however 'made' some new kinds of Orcs in his pits at Isengard - a bigger kind (probably cross-bred with Men) who were tolerant to the Daylight.

There is no difference between the books and the Film Adaptations. Sauron is not shown to 'make' any new Orcs, though Saruman is.

So In the scope of LOTR, the place would be Isengard? 🤔

 

[Ent]

the place would be Isengard?

Yes, this is the only place we read or see/hear of a 'new' Orc type being bred.
All others seem to be by natural multiplication with no reference to 'breeding.'

 

[Tar-Elenion]

There is a difference between the books and the films.
In the films the Uruk-hai are attributed to Saruman out of some sort of weird slime pods.
In the books, Saruman seems to have bred half-orcs (in two varieties), while the Uruk-hai (great soldier-orcs) are from Mordor initially.
Here is an essay:
The Uruk-hai are first bred by Sauron, not Saruman, and Uruk-hai are not Half-orcs.
Uruk-hai means Orc-folk (uruk=orc, hai=folk) (PE 17, Words, Phrases and Passages in LotR):
"B Urukhai Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk'"
and:
"'The Black Speech was not intentionally modeled on any style, but was meant to be self-consistent, very different from Elvish, yet organized and expressive, as would be expected of a device of Sauron before his complete corruption. It was evidently an agglutinative language, and the verbal system must have included pronominal suffixes expressing the object, as well as those indicating the subject: -ul is a pl. objective, translated 'them', and -ûk an element meaning 'the whole, all' (thrakatalûk I 267 is a misprint for -ulûk, as correctly written in the flame letters). The stem burz 'dark' is also found in the later Lugbûrz = Barad-dûr; in the archaic ring-inscription burzumishi is evidently made up of this stem + a particularizing suffix or 'article' um, and an enclitic 'preposition' ishi 'in, inside'. The debased form of the B. S. which survived in the Third Age only in the Dark Tower is seen in a few names (as Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk') and the fragment of vituperation uttered by one of Grishnakh's companions, emissaries from Sauron. I have tried to play fair linguistically, and it is meant to have a meaning and not to be a mere casual group of nasty noises, though an accurate translation would even nowadays only be printable in the higher and artistically more advanced forms of literature. According to my taste such things are best left to Orcs, ancient and modern."

Uruks is an Anglicization of Uruk-hai (UT, Index):
"Uruks Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength."

Late in the Third Age the term Uruk-hai refers to the great soldier-orcs that came from both Mordor and Isengard (LotR, App. F):
"Orcs and the Black Speech. Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga ‘slave’."

Uruks first appeared in the 2400's of the Third Age (App. A):
"In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath."

Saruman only started using them late in the Third Age (App. A):
"In 2989 Théodwyn married Éomund of Eastfold, the chief Marshal of the Mark. Her son Éomer was born in 2991, and her daughter Éowyn in 2995. At that time Sauron had arisen again, and the shadow of Mordor reached out to Rohan. Orcs began to raid in the eastern regions and slay or steal horses. Others also came down from the Misty Mountains, many being great uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected."

Uruk-hai were involved in the revolt at Cirith Ungol (LotR, Land of Shadow):
"‘Whose blame’s that?’ said the soldier. ‘Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it’s a great Elf in bright armour, then it’s a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it’s all the lot together.’"

The Uruk-hai (as great soldier-orcs) are not exclusive to Saruman, nor bred (at least initially) by him. They are Sauron's doing.

They also are not the 'half-orcs' which Saruman did breed (Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Orcs):
"Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

Further the "half-orcs" are distinguished from the Uruks in both LotR (Flotsam and Jetsam):
"He emptied Isengard. I saw the enemy go: endless lines of marching Orcs; and troops of them mounted on great wolves. And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.’
‘I thought of him too,’ said Aragorn. ‘We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm’s Deep. It seems plain now that that Southerner was a spy of Saruman’s..."

...and in UT (Battles of the Fords of Isen):
"This was barely done when disaster came. Saruman’s eastern force came down with unexpected speed; it was much smaller than the western force, but more dangerous. In its van were some Dunlending horsemen and a great pack of the dreadful Orcish wolfriders, feared by horses. Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles. The horsemen and wolfriders fell on the horse-herds and picketed horses and slew or dispersed them."
...and later:
"As soon as the enemy had gained possession of the eastern end of the Fords there appeared a company of men or orcmen (evidently dispatched for the purpose), ferocious, mail-clad, and armed with axes."

 

[Ent]

The Uruk-hai are first bred by Sauron, not Saruman, and Uruk-hai are not Half-orcs.
Uruk-hai means Orc-folk (uruk=orc, hai=folk) (PE 17, Words, Phrases and Passages in LotR):
"B Urukhai Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk'"
and:
"'The Black Speech was not intentionally modeled on any style, but was meant to be self-consistent, very different from Elvish, yet organized and expressive, as would be expected of a device of Sauron before his complete corruption. It was evidently an agglutinative language, and the verbal system must have included pronominal suffixes expressing the object, as well as those indicating the subject: -ul is a pl. objective, translated 'them', and -ûk an element meaning 'the whole, all' (thrakatalûk I 267 is a misprint for -ulûk, as correctly written in the flame letters). The stem burz 'dark' is also found in the later Lugbûrz = Barad-dûr; in the archaic ring-inscription burzumishi is evidently made up of this stem + a particularizing suffix or 'article' um, and an enclitic 'preposition' ishi 'in, inside'. The debased form of the B. S. which survived in the Third Age only in the Dark Tower is seen in a few names (as Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk') and the fragment of vituperation uttered by one of Grishnakh's companions, emissaries from Sauron. I have tried to play fair linguistically, and it is meant to have a meaning and not to be a mere casual group of nasty noises, though an accurate translation would even nowadays only be printable in the higher and artistically more advanced forms of literature. According to my taste such things are best left to Orcs, ancient and modern."

Please help me by deciphering where the source of this information is?
If I'm mistaken I'll be happy to change.
I can find in Appendix F where it says Sauron tried to develop the Black Speech for the Orcs...but failed.
Still looking for a direct quote that says Sauron 'bred' any, or whether they were simply the result of cross-breeding among Orcs themselves.

And we can't use UT because Sir Mazzly is specifically wanting to know about LoTR and the derivative LOTR on screen.

So the quest is for "Who bred (made) Orcs" according to (within the confines of) LoTR.

Help me narrow this down... I don't find any other 'breeding of Orcs' mentioned. That they 'first appeared' also does not 'get us there' because whether they were 'bred by Sauron' or 'natural cross-breeding' is speculative unless specifically stated.

(Yes, I am that kind of an exacting Ent, sorry...)
Thanks much.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

The source of the quote is cited PE 17 (Parma Eldalamberon 17) Words Phrases and Passages in LotR

 

[Ent]

The source of the quote is cited PE 17 (Parma Eldalamberon 17) Words Phrases and Passages in LotR

Ah, OK. I'll review it. But this too is a source outside LoTR and never completed by Tolkien, so doesn't pertain (precisely) to the question asked.

I've got it pulled up and will read it in just a bit to see what it has to tell me.

Thanks much for clarifying.

 

[Radaghast]

Perhaps worth noting that orcs are not made, as in manufactured (as Saruman's half-orcs seem to be in the films), but elves that were corrupted into orcs, and then populated themselves. That is the 'official' explanation anyway.

But of those unhappy [Quendi] who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise.

• The Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor"

 

[Ent]

Perhaps worth noting that orcs are not made, as in manufactured, but elves that were corrupted and then populated themselves. That is the 'official' explanation anyway.

• The Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor"

Indeed, and is why I always use (add) the word 'bred' as does Tolkien's Text.
Bred using living things corrupted by the black arts, torture, and other unsavory stuff.
Neither Melkor nor Saruman had powers to 'make' (create) anything. Nor dud Aule for that matter... who 'fashioned' the Dwarves from fire and stone.

 

[Ent]

I have now downloaded this "Parma Eldalamberon No. 17" and will b e giving it a read 'soon'. it's a little hard on the eyes, but not impossible.
Sadly this particular .pdf does not appear to be 'searchable'... i'll look for another.
Meanwhile I gots me some work to do to get thru it.

It's 221 pages of glee.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

The term "bred" or "breed" is only used once in the written LoTR with regard to Orcs - and that is regarding Saruman's work 'by his foul arts'.

"Don’t orcs eat, and don’t they drink? Or do they just live on foul air and poison?’
‘No, they eat and drink, Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don’t think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them..."
LotR, Tower of Cirith Ungol
"The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days. It is said that they had no language of their own, but took what they could of other tongues and perverted it to their own liking;"
App. F
Breed is used several times regarding Orcs, though as types of orcs:
"Presently two orcs came into view. One was clad in ragged brown and was armed with a bow of horn; it was of a small breed, black-skinned, with wide and snuffling nostrils: evidently a tracker of some kind. The other was a big fighting-orc, like those of Shagrat’s company, bearing the token of the Eye."
Land of Shadow
"And so it seemed that they would. The leading orcs came loping along, panting, holding their heads down. They were a gang of the smaller breeds being driven unwilling to their Dark Lord’s wars; all they cared for was to get the march over and escape the whip. Beside them, running up and down the line, went two of the large fierce uruks, cracking lashes and shouting."
Lanbd of Shadow

 

[Sons of the Woodland King]

Neither Melkor nor Saruman had powers to 'make' (create) anything. Nor dud Aule for that matter... who 'fashioned' the Dwarves from fire and stone.

Amen! I mean, I created coffee this morning by running hot water through some coffee beans.
This is why Celebrimbor's RoP quote, "True creations requires sacrifice" made me cringe so bad. And he HAD to say it twice.
Then again, the pride of the Noldor in their "creations" was one of their most fatal flaws.

 

[Ent]

"The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days.

Exactly. Melkor bred them first in the Eldar days, as is written elsewhere.
Then they 'multiplied like flies'.

With regard to the term 'bred' being applied to the Orcs in the timeframe of LoTR by anyone, it is only applied to Saruman's work at Isengard.

The Shadow that bred them can only mock

"The Shadow that bred them...." is Melkor. Shadow is also singular, leaving Sauron out... though he was certainly around well before Melkor bred them.

Sauron is only said to have helped breed the Wargs in his Tower of Utumno digs.... which became known as 'the Tower of Werewolves' or something like that. "No Orcs, thank you very much" (says the Ent).

So back to mazzly's question... we still have only Isengard and Saruman specifically 'breeding' Orcs to produce a new type, in the times of LoTR.

As for the rest, all I see is continued 'interbreeding', pre-3rd age, through the 3rd age, and assuming any survived into the 4th age and are still waiting for another 'return', into that age as well.

 

[Ent]

I created coffee this morning by running hot water through some coffee beans.

Exactly, Ms. Sons Of.... but this isn't 'creating' is it.

Just as:

the pride of the Noldor in their "creations" was one of their most fatal flaws.

the Noldor created nothing, but used existing things to achieve their goals. Thus, their pride was entirely misplaced.

We humans make the same mistake all the time, not understanding our 'words' and using them totally inappropriately. (Or understanding them, and using them demonstratively, as you likely were here.)

This is why Tolkien kept nudging up against the misuse of the word 'magic' - an entirely different thing than the 'intrinsic' power of Eru or the 'imputed' power he gave to the Valar, Maiar, Elves etc.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Tower of Utumno?

Exactly. Melkor bred them first in the Eldar days, as is written elsewhere.
Then they 'multiplied like flies'.

With regard to the term 'bred' being applied to the Orcs in the timeframe of LoTR by anyone, it is only applied to Saruman's work at Isengard.



"The Shadow that bred them...." is Melkor. Shadow is also singular, leaving Sauron out... though he was certainly around well before Melkor bred them.

Sauron is only said to have helped breed the Wargs in his Tower of Utumno digs.... which became known as 'the Tower of Werewolves' or something like that. "No Orcs, thank you very much" (says the Ent).

Utumno?

"We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor, not at first maybe so much for the provision of
servants or the infantry of his wars of destruction, as for the defilement of the Children and the blasphemous mockery of the
designs of Eru. The details of the accomplishment of this wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of
Sauron. In that case the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men. When Melkor was made captive, Sauron escaped and lay hid in Middle-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of the Orcs (no doubt already begun) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman;"
Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed

"But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power."
App. F

"‘But last night I told you of Sauron the Great, the Dark Lord. The rumours that you have heard are true: he has indeed arisen again and left his hold in Mirkwood and returned to his ancient fastness in the Dark Tower of Mordor. That name even you hobbits have heard of, like a shadow on the borders of old stories. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.’"
Shadow of the Past

"Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants. Long ago. It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again."
Shadow of the Past

"‘Against the Shadow in the East,’ said Strider quietly. ‘Not much, Barliman, but every little helps. You can let Mr. Underhill stay here tonight, as Mr. Underhill; and you can forget the name of Baggins, till he is far away.’"
Strider

"Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.’"
White Rider

"The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. "

So back to mazzly's question... we still have only Isengard and Saruman specifically 'breeding' Orcs to produce a new type, in the times of LoTR.

Half-orcs and goblin-men. Not Orcs from slime pods.
As I already laid out.

As for the rest, all I see is continued 'interbreeding', pre-3rd age, through the 3rd age, and assuming any survived into the 4th age and are still waiting for another 'return', into that age as well.

 

[Ent]

Thanks Tar.
At the end of the day, I kind of look at this as 'making a simple question pretty complex.'
All that is posted is of course written in various lore in various places.
But it is aside from the focus of the question.

What you COULD do, to great advantage to all, is take a look at our Wiki and make sure its entry on Orcs is in line with all we know about them, and put it all together into a really nice 'essay' on "The Orcs" for inclusion in our "Library of the Istar" or place for well-written essays or such.

I would really love to see all this drawn together and presented... especially in the Wiki if it's not including it all already. (The Wiki, where people might first look for information is likely best.)

 

[Ent]

@Tar-Elenion

Mazzly's purpose for posting:

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/wh...sic-questions-on-the-forum.30701/#post-566794