Where to find classes in Sindarin?

Just Another Hobbit · Jun 19, 2020

Okay, now... I may be asking something that you already explained, but I found this:
An 'i' without an accent is pronounced short, as in 'sick', or 'hit'. An accented 'i' is a long 'ee' sound, like the 'i' in 'machine' (http://sindarinlessons.weebly.com/1---pronunciation.html)
Is this rule from The Road Goes Ever On? Unfortunately I don't have a copy of that book

Elthir · Jun 19, 2020

Yep, looks like RGEO is the source here J.A.H. (if I may refer to you in this way), considering "sick" is actually the example Tolkien chooses there for Sindarin short i.

And I must admit in my young youth I also wrongly stressed (the Quenya word) as sindArin, same as the guy in your earlier videos who then corrected himself.

Just Another Hobbit · Jun 19, 2020

Yeah, either JAH or just Hobbit is fine

Cool well thank you very much for enlightening me to the error of my ways, and I'm glad to say that I've learned something new! So thank you.

Olorgando · Jun 19, 2020

Just Another Hobbit said:
Yeah, either JAH or just Hobbit is fine

As I'm German, but bilingual (and my real-life name starts with a J), I simply can't resist this question:
Would that be pronounce "dshah" or "yah"?

Elthir · Jun 19, 2020

Hopefully I'm on target here, or not too far off. I'm confident on stress, and the dh/th distinction, but if I recall correctly, I've even seen some "heavyweight" Tolkien linguists differ about short i.

If Atwe finds this thread I might have to reconsider some of the above!

Just Another Hobbit · Jun 19, 2020

Elthir said:
Hopefully I'm on target here, or not too far off. I'm confident on stress, and the dh/th distinction, but if I recall correctly, I've even seen some "heavyweight" Tolkien linguists differ about short i.

And if Atwe finds this thread I might have to reconsider some of the above!

Yeah I checked the appendix and you're definitely right about the stress. Let's hope Atwe stops by!

Olorgando said:
As I'm German, but bilingual (and my real-life name starts with a J), I simply can't resist this question:
Would that be pronounce "dshah" or "yah"?

I'm not German, but I have a strange sense of humor so my brain read Y.A.H. and then immediately said dshah! 😂 So either one works

Elthir · Jun 19, 2020

Olorgando said:
(and my real-life name starts with a J)

Jando?

Olorgando · Jun 19, 2020

Elthir said:
Jando?

Nope.
Jan (pronounced Yan) is a real-life German name, from northern Germany, but not mine.

Elthir · Jun 19, 2020

Well, is it okay if I call you Jando Olorgando in my head?

I'm guessing no . . .

Olorgando · Jun 19, 2020

Elthir said:
Well, is it okay if I call you Jando Olorgando in my head?

I'm guessing no . . .

What you do in your head - hey, I'm pretty sure everyone has ramblings there that they sensibly do not let out if they don't want people to shun them (I know I do). 😁

Firawyn · Jun 21, 2020

Watching you all stumble over vowel sounds may have made my night. I say that with love. Like Tolkien, my first second language was Latin. I've always proceeded with Elven pronunciation based on the idea that Tolkien's vowel sound base would have originated with Latin rules more than anything else.

That all said, Welcome to TTF, Arwen, and while I'm not sure I can direct you to a LARPing group (although I'm a big enough nerd to know the term and have done it in my time) back in the day we did a fair bit of what equates to role playing in the written word - each player made a character and would write a scene, and then another would jump in and continue the scene, and then the next would need to react to that scene, and then the first player would have to react with his or her character to what the second and third players brought to the scene, and so forth. Orcs? A quest? A flood? An attacking Wizard? Who even knew? It got pretty wild. We're hoping to bring that back to TTF in good time, once membership is flowing a bit better again. It's about as close to LARPing as you can get without physically being in the room together. It just requires that you have half decent writing skills and a good imagination, along with - obviously - a fair amount of knowledge of Tolkien's work.

Arwen in training · Jun 22, 2020

Just Another Hobbit said:
A couple websites I found helpful are realelvish.net and elfdict.com (I prefer realelvish.net but elfdict.com has been helpful at times).

Also, I suggest watching these videos:
WARNING: His pronunciation is off in the first video, especially his vowels😂 it should be:
A = AH
E = EH
I = IH as in sick. The above videos incorrectly pronounce it as EE as in machine, but this pronunciation is used when the 'i' has a tilde ( like this: í ) above it. Thank you Elthir for correcting me (see below)
O = AW as in thOUGHt
U = OO as in brUte
and Y = Ü or EE apparently Ü is sometimes pronounced OO, but I dont really understand 'Ü' so I could be wrong lol
He goes over all these and more in the second video, but I thought I'd give you a heads up.

If you want a good dictionary, I've found Sindarin-English & English-Sindarin Dictionary by J-M Carpenter to be really helpful.

I hope some of this helps!!

Thanks a lot! I will be sure to look into all of this today!

Arwen in training · Jun 22, 2020

Firawyn said:
Watching you all stumble over vowel sounds may have made my night. I say that with love. Like Tolkien, my first second language was Latin. I've always proceeded with Elven pronunciation based on the idea that Tolkien's vowel sound base would have originated with Latin rules more than anything else.

That all said, Welcome to TTF, Arwen, and while I'm not sure I can direct you to a LARPing group (although I'm a big enough nerd to know the term and have done it in my time) back in the day we did a fair bit of what equates to role playing in the written word - each player made a character and would write a scene, and then another would jump in and continue the scene, and then the next would need to react to that scene, and then the first player would have to react with his or her character to what the second and third players brought to the scene, and so forth. Orcs? A quest? A flood? An attacking Wizard? Who even knew? It got pretty wild. We're hoping to bring that back to TTF in good time, once membership is flowing a bit better again. It's about as close to LARPing as you can get without physically being in the room together. It just requires that you have half decent writing skills and a good imagination, along with - obviously - a fair amount of knowledge of Tolkien's work.

Thanks I'm glad to be here! And I will look with my friends if they want to do writing LARPing with me, thanks for the idea!

Manwe · Jun 22, 2020

Moderator note: I moved this discussion into its own thread so new members can easily find it also. (Otherwise, it was hidden under a thread in the "new members"-subforum )

Elthir · Jun 22, 2020

Do I hear the steps of Atwe 👍

Miguel · Jun 22, 2020

Elthir said:
Tolkien reads Sindarin . . . short and long i. Sindarin linnathon versus palan-díriel, for instance.

It sounds incredibly beautiful, i'm melting.

Elaran · Jun 25, 2020

I will simply copy an FAQ entry that I wrote for my Tolkienian linguistics group here, @Arwen in training.

Where can I study Elvish?
Interest in Tolkienian Linguistics mostly faded after the early 2000s. In the meantime, some of Tolkien's most informative notes and essays (not lessons) on his languages were published. As a consequence of both, most of what one can find on the internet is now outdated; Tolkien's later works either debunked our theories or replaced his own older works. There are currently a few courses which employ these new findings in their lessons, but they are yet to reach their final stage. Thus we recommend practising often in the group, regardless of which source you use for your studies, so that our experts could make corrections on what they offer.

In other words, due to the fact that most stuff on the internet came before the publication of Tolkien's linguistic notes, they offer more guesswork and little evidence, which is now reversed with more recent courses like the one that I linked above (the free course is more accurate than the book that it advertises). This is the fate of all such works until all of Tolkien's notes get published and analysed fully. So it is important to keep updated. Even in the past few months, the experts in my group have discovered a few details.

@Olorgando The "Council of Elrond" courses still show ideas from the early 2000s which have been debunked for quite a while now by Tolkien's notes. Avoid.

@Just Another Hobbit The "weebly" website is beyond inaccurate. I gave an example to its countless problems here. Avoid like the plague.

Olorgando · Jun 25, 2020

Elaran said:
...
@Olorgando The "Council of Elrond" courses still show ideas from the early 2000s which have been debunked for quite a while now by Tolkien's notes. Avoid.
...

The only reason I mentioned it was that it is the first JRRT site I joined in November 2013.
I don't have the slightest notion as to its value, as I have not gotten into the languages at all. I just had the impression that one member there at least had some knowledge, for what that impression is worth.

Atwe · Jun 29, 2020

Have I been invoked?

I am no Sindarin expert by any measure, but if anyone's interested, Paul Strack, the master behind eldamo.org, is in the process of posting a series of articles on Sindarin grammar on my website, Aglardh.

Here's the article on pronunciation: https://middangeard.org.uk/aglardh/node/477
And this one on stress: https://middangeard.org.uk/aglardh/node/478

For the same in Quenya I can shamelessly plug my textbook Atanquesta: https://middangeard.org.uk/atanquesta/

Elthir · Jun 29, 2020

Thanks Atwe.

And yep, you were invoked

Where to find classes in Sindarin?

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