Which are the Two Towers?

Barad Dur and Orthanc.
Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul.

Re: Mithlond said...

Originally posted by Dáin Ironfoot I
Errr... Mithlond, no offense but Cirith Ungol was not even a tower. It was a pass, and an evil one at that. Yes there were many stairs and tunnels but they were all inside the cliffs of Mordor (Emyn Lythien? I think its close to that...) We know they were inside a mountain for Shelob hated light just like her mother, Ungoliant. Minas Morgul was an interesting part of the book, but it is not one of the Two Towers for it was under the sway of Barad-dur. Thus, Barad-dur and Orthanc were the Two Towers for they were the prominent ones in Middle Earth at the time.

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Dain, my man... there was most definately a tower at Cirith Ungol... that was where Frodo was taken after he was bitten by Shelob. I suggest you read this thread over again and reread the quotes from the author himself where he suggests that his first impression would be that the two towers were Orthanc (since book 3 is mainly concerned with Rohan and Saruman) and Cirith Ungol (since book 4 is mainly concerned with Frodo's attempt to enter Mordor which end with his capture at Cirith Ungol).

I'm amazed that anyone can deny that Cirith Ungol was a tower, given that there is an entire chapter of the books called The Tower of Cirith Ungol. Each to his own, I guess.
Just a reminder that I posted a while back on this thread- I don't think there is a definitive answer to this question. Tolkien wrote the narrative structure without the title "The Two Towers" in mind, thus it's no surprise that the narrative structure yields no Two Towers which easily fit the title. The title of the book then fits to whichever two towers the reader most identifies with as dominating the narrative. No one person's view on this is more authoratitive than another's- even the two towers of the teeth at the Gate of Mordor could satisfy the role. Not that I'm trying to shut down debate, but I hope that nobody thinks their opinion is superior or inferior to anyone else's on this thread.

The Tower of Cirith Ungol is little more than a watchtower in comparison to Minas Morgul, and Minas Morgul is the Capital of the Ringwraiths! How could these not be the ones referred to?

Dain: As aragil has pointed out above, do you not remember that very first chapter of book six; The Tower of Cirith Ungol???

It really doesnt matter what type of tower Cirith Ungol was, the fact is it was a tower, and it just happened to be the tower in which the main story heads into. Never does the story or characters enter into Minas Morgul.

Errr... I guess I was wrong...

I guess the tower was the thing that the sun shone through or whatever, I usually read the book late at night so I tend to skip over the more important descriptive parts of the book. I always thought Cirith Ungol was the name of the pass and the tower was outside of it, but eveidently Cirith Ungol was the tower and the pass?... I think that its wierd a spider would live in a tower and not in a subterranean cavern of some sort.

Could someone explain exactly what Cirith Ungol was and where Frodo and Sam were being led through to get to Shelob. I had thought it was a cave through the inside of the mountain and a tower was at the other end of it or the beginning. (I rememeber Frodo seeing the red sun through a statue or a light in a tower that reminded him of the Argonath.) Err... Im confused

I believe Cirith Ungol was the name of the pass, and the tower behind was called the Tower of Cirith Ungol. However, the tower could also be referred to as Cirith Ungol, in the same way you might say New York instead of New York City.

On The description of my Two towers book cover with the towers and a nazgul flying to and from them,it had the white hand of saruman and the moon above both towers,it's gotta be Minus ithil/morgal and The tower of Orthanc

OK, thats what I thought... but I just never thought of the tower being called Cirith Ungol . But I was saying it wasnt a tower earlier becuase I thought you were referring to the actual PASSAGE, not the tower. My bad. I still think its Barad dur and Orthanc.

my god after 15 pages we're still dicussing what towers Mr Tolkien is talking about (i hope as i cant be naffed to read any of it), he was blatantly refuring to the towers of Orthanc and Minas Morgul, as he even states this in the back of TFOTR, and it is these because they are where all the scenes are based around in TTT!!!

Thôl

Originally posted by Celebthôl my god after 15 pages we're still dicussing what towers Mr Tolkien is talking about (i hope as i cant be naffed to read any of it), he was blatantly refuring to the towers of Orthanc and Minas Morgul, as he even states this in the back of TFOTR, and it is these because they are where all the scenes are based around in TTT!!!

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LoL! Yep, that's what is says in FOTR And according to Wayne Hammond's bibliography Tolkien approved this.

And had JRRT's cover been used at the time (it's now in print) I doubt this thread would surface much ~ but perhaps in the form of something like: Why are the Two Towers Orthanc and Minas Morgul like Tolkien drew on the cover and is stated in FOTR?

Yes, yes, yes.
Muppet-boy Jackson got it wrong.

I hardly see how PJ could be considered to have gotten it wrong, given that JRRT had problems with which two towers the name referred to. In any case, given that the movie doesn't mention Minas Morgul or Cirith Ungol, it would certainly be interesting how either of them could be one of the two towers in the movie.

good point, but i think that PJ left them out because he wanted it to be Orthanc and Barad-dur. If he put Minas Morgul in, people might start to consider it the second tower, and perhaps he just didnt want any confusion.

and im sticking with Morgul and Orthanc. Their the puppets of Sauron, the 2 Towers that are most threatening (save Barad-dur itself) and well, its kinda like:

Barad-Dur
__¦__
¦ ¦
Orthanc Minas Morgul


Those are the rankings of the towers (in my opinion), and the 2 below Barad-dur, and held in highest regards to Sauron were Orthanc and Minas Morgul

oops, that trree came out wrong... well it should be:


Barad dur> Orthanc + Minas Morgul. Minas Morgul = Orthanc in terms of "ranks" in Sauron's eyes... something like that...

Guys Guys Guys...... hmmm where to start ... 1st BUY THE SIMARILLION...and you'll get your answer faster than waiting for me ....


FYI: Sorry Greymantle(admin).... 1st time I meet up with my double, I'm actualy surprise to see that someone else knows about "Greymantle" name.....(well I assume you do!)... ..... Before I drop some more info on TTT...Plz, later take some time to go enjoy the Visual archives on LOTR, (wallpaper) and major links.

The Towers you are all looking for are ....1. Barad-Hur which is also called "Darktower" and the other is ...... Minas-Ithill... which in it's history was the "Moontower".... , to know more about these 2 , get the Simarrillion an read up to the part that explain the powershift which happend in the first age ...

The movie does have 2 Towers as main subject, all that happends in the TTT movie is BECAUSE of what happend in the first (or 2nd age) between the TTT. It's a powershift that happend more or less at the same time that the 2 " Minas-.... cities were subverted, during the reign of the first KINGS.

What the Others were ......
Cirith-Ungol :This where Shelob holds her Lair
Orthanc welll we know this 1) but.... it was granted by Steward Beren to the Wizard Saruman, who was at that time working as an ally of Gondor.
Minas Morgul:'Minas Morgul' was the name given to this city after its capture by the Nazgûl in III 2002. The city itself, though, was much older - as Minas Ithil, it had stood since the late Second Age, and was some 2,100 years old when it was renamed. For its origins and earlier history, refer to the entry for Minas Ithil.
Minas Tirith :The tower that guarded the Pass of Sirion, after which Minas Tirith in Gondor was perhaps named. Built by Finrod Felagund to keep watch on the western pass of Beleriand, it was mainly in the keeping of his brother Orodreth until captured by Sauron in the late First Age.

....and if I remember correctly there's another 2 more twrs that i can't seem to remember the names but which aren't related to these events !


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.... In Mordor , where the shadows lies !
Farewell travellers and till the next meeting comes up !
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BTW .... yes me agian .... CIRITH_UNGOL IS NOT A TOWER ... it's a pass ---
The pass through the Ephel Dúath on the western borders of Mordor that lay above the tower of Minas Morgul.

.... In Mordor , where the shadows lies !
Farewell travellers and till the next meeting comes up !
www.greymantle.com
Greymantle.com , Wanderer of Midle-Earth ! (NOT Greymantle (admin).. leave the merit to him plz).

All I have to say is.....wow. Have you not read the thread? The whole thing is arguing which 2 towers Tolkien is referring to in the book, and just because you said which 2 they are, you're automatically right? I'm afraid it doesn't work that way....provide some legitimate proof of the things you say, and no one will argue with you. We know what all of the towers are, we've been reading the books for a very long time, but thanks for providing all of the names to us anyway....by the way, the other 2 you're thinking of are probably the White Towers, which are (fittingly) located on the White Downs to the west of the Shire.
And what power shift in the First Age are you talking about that has anything to do with the events in TTT? At the end of the First Age none of the towers that are around in The Lord of the Rings are even in existence. The First Age has absolutely nothing to do with the events in TTT.

Barad-Hur which is also called "Darktower"

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What is Barad-Hur? Do you mean Barad-Dur, Sauron's Dark Tower?

Greymantle.com said:

BTW .... yes me agian .... CIRITH_UNGOL IS NOT A TOWER ... it's a pass ---
The pass through the Ephel Dúath on the western borders of Mordor that lay above the tower of Minas Morgul.

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As Maeglin said, you probably should read the thread before prattling off statements like this. As Grond, aragil and Mithlond have already said, there was an entire chapter of the Two Towers called The Tower of Cirith Ungol. Yes, the pass is also called Cirith Ungol, but the tower does exist.

1. Barad-Hur which is also called "Darktower" and the other is ...... Minas-Ithill... which in it's history was the "Moontower"..

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I assume you are talking about Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr? I seriously doubt that, since Barad-dûr and Minas Morgul play a very minor role in the Two Towers. The only combinations that would make any sense would be Orthanc & Cirith Ungol (because of the amount of time spent at both), Barad-dûr & Orthanc (because of the whole Sauron/Saruman thing) or Minas Morgul & Minas Tirith (although highly unlikely, since Minas Tirith was not fully introduced until the third book).

The movie does have 2 Towers as main subject, all that happends in the TTT movie is BECAUSE of what happend in the first (or 2nd age) between the TTT. It's a powershift that happend more or less at the same time that the 2 " Minas-.... cities were subverted, during the reign of the first KINGS.

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We are talking about the books, not the movies...

Guys Guys Guys...... hmmm where to start ... 1st BUY THE SIMARILLION...and you'll get your answer faster than waiting for me ....

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I assure you that the majority of the members who have posted in this thread would have read the Silmarillion. Many times in some cases. Anyway, there is more information in the Appendices of LotR regarding the towers of Gondor than there is in Silmarillion, so I do not see where you are coming from there....especially since you appear to have just c+p that info from the Encyclopedia of Arda....please cite the website you copy from next time, please.

I think that one of the Two Towers referred to in the book is certainly Orthanc, but as to the other.. there are several options as already mentioned. It could be Tower of Cirith Ungol, as that is where Frodo is being taken to, it could be Tower of Minas Morgul, as that looms large in the background when Frodo & Sam travel through Ithilien. It could be Barad-Dur, as it is THE Tower of the story, or it could be the Tower of Minas Tirith. As Orthanc seems the likely candidate for the first spot, I am inclined to think that Barad-dur would be the second Tower. There is a clear powerstruggle going on between Sauron and Saruman, Saruman trying to double-cross Sauron, while pretending to be an ally. As we find in this book, there was a link between the two towers, the Palantiri that both held.
Minas Tirith doesn't really feature until the third book, and Minas Morgul is just 'there', in the background, nothign really takes palce there, and Frodo's imprisonment in Cirith Ungol is in the third book as well.