Which are the Two Towers?

Úlairi · Apr 6, 2002

Thanks Beleg, that's very helpful. So we have more than one opinion here. It could be:

O=Orthanc
MT=Minas Tirith
MM=Minas Morgul
BD=Barad-dur

1)O & BD
2)O & MT
3)MT & MM
4)MT & BD

There is a possiblity of MM and BD but I doubt it.

Greenwood · Apr 7, 2002

Ulairi

You left out Cirith Ungol.

Orthanc and Cirith Ungol seems to be the pairing most favored by Tolkien himself.

Úlairi · Apr 7, 2002

Thankyou Greenwood, but I left out Cirith Ungol because I cannot see the actual importance of Cirith Ungol in this matter. It was only one of Sauron's many towers. Why on earth should it be given recognition? Because it was mentioned in TTT and RotK? I think not.

Niniel · Apr 7, 2002

Well, because Orthanc and Cirith Ungol are the two towers that are most important in the second book (Minas Tirith is more important in the third).
Thanx everyone for your comments, I knew it wasn't that as easy as the filmmakers want us to believe!

Hirila · Apr 7, 2002

If the third book would have been called "The Two Towers" I would have said that the towers are Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith, the good tower and the bad one.

But as the second book is called TTT I agree that the towers referred are Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. These are the two real bad towers that have a part in the book. What happens at Minas Morgul? Nothing, Frodo, Sam and Gollum only see the Ringwraiths coming out. So it can`t be that. And Minas Tirith has an importance only in the end when Gandalf goes there.

BTW, isn`t it so that the tower is called Orthanc only after Saruman`s name he has as a Maia? That Isengard is the original name, named after the river?

Greenwood · Apr 7, 2002

BTW, isn`t it so that the tower is called Orthanc only after Saruman`s name he has as a Maia? That Isengard is the original name, named after the river?

Hirila

I believe Orthanc is the name of the actual tower and that Isengard is the whole area with its surrounding walls and gates, etc. But I could be wrong. I will check my books.

Anamatar IV · Apr 7, 2002

i consider it barad-dur and minas morgul. but think bout the book for a minute. It would make more sense for orthanc and minas morgul.

Úlairi · Apr 8, 2002

No Greenwood, you are correct in saying so. Orthanc was the name of the tower, Isengard was the area it was in and Isen is the name of the river running past it.

Lantarion · Apr 8, 2002

And what is the name of the tower of Cirith Ungol? Because the word 'cirith' basically means 'gap' or 'cleft'.
And a friend of mine thinks Frodo was taken captive to Minas Morgul, not Cirith Ungol. So which exactly is it? I haven't read the LotR in months!

Greenwood · Apr 8, 2002

It is never given any name that I am aware of other than the Tower of Cirith Ungol. This is indeed where Frodo was taken prisoner, not Minas Morgul which was once the sister city to Minas Tirith.

Niniel · Apr 9, 2002

I don't konw of any other name for that tower either. The pass over the mountains is called Cirith Ungol (Pass of the Spider), and Shelob's lair itself is called Barad Ungol (something like 'Stronghold of the Spider', as in Barad-Dûr). But the tower is just called teh Tower of Cirith Ungol. I suppose it was originally not important enough to have a name of its own; Suaron would have a lot of towers guarding Mordor.

Úlairi · Apr 9, 2002

There is absolutely no debate here, there is no other name for the tower of Cirith Ungol, again I ask of the relevance that Cirith Ungol plays which is not as important as either Barad-dur, Orthanc or Minas Tirith.

Niniel · Apr 9, 2002

It is of course not as important in a political/military sense as are Minas Tirith and Barad-Dûr, but in the story the tower of Cirith Ungol is very important for the character development of Frodo and Sam. I think for Tolkien the importance of the towers in the story is more important than the underlying importace of the towers in a 'neutral' sense. Of course Minas Tirith ans Barad-Dûr are in the overall histroy of Middle-Earth more important than Suaron's little watch-tower at Cirith Ungol, but for Frodo this tower means a lot more than Barad-Dûr which he sees only form afar, or Minas Tirith which he sees only after his Quest. And the only two towers that are really featured in the book are these two, the others appear only in RoTK.

Úlairi · Apr 9, 2002

Niniel, I'll put this one to you. Would you name your book after the most important factors of your book, or would you name it after a mere and insignificant part of it which is only important to one of your main characters?

Greenwood · Apr 9, 2002

Originally posted by Ulairi
Thankyou Greenwood, but I left out Cirith Ungol because I cannot see the actual importance of Cirith Ungol in this matter. It was only one of Sauron's many towers. Why on earth should it be given recognition? Because it was mentioned in TTT and RotK? I think not.

....

Would you name your book after the most important factors of your book, or would you name it after a mere and insignificant part of it which is only important to one of your main characters?

Ulairi

You may not like Cirith Ungol being one of The Two Towers, but you cannot ignore the author's own views on the matter. Tolkien did not like the title and he thought it misleading, but he also said: "It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol." Cirith Ungol cannot be dismissed based on a personal view. The author's view trumps all others.

Lantarion · Apr 9, 2002

But why would Sauron (or the Witch-king, whichever) build two huge statues, filled with his malice to keep guard on such a small 'fort'? The Tower of Cirith Ungol did not indeed have almost any importance as a military base in the LotR, so why would two monsterous statue-guards be placed in a needless fortress?
And btw Niniel, 'barad' is Sindarin for 'tower', not 'stronghold'.

Anamatar IV · Apr 9, 2002

I HAVE AN ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the movie (thnx trailor) for TTT Gandalf says "there is a union between the two towers Orthanc and Barad-DUr.

Úlairi · Apr 9, 2002

Thankyou amerxtremist. Orthanc and Barad-dur IMO sound more likely. I still cannot see why Tolkien would name his book after such an insignificant factor in the story!

pohuist · Apr 11, 2002

Oh, please!! I can't believe you are using a movie as a source of knowledge about the book. Barad Dur and Minas Tirith are only mentioned slightly in the TT. One must be Orthanc, the other is either CU or MM. IMHO Tolkien's view should trump all others.

Anamatar IV · Apr 11, 2002

Originally posted by pohuist
Oh, please!! I can't believe you are using a movie as a source of knowledge about the book. Barad Dur and Minas Tirith are only mentioned slightly in the TT. One must be Orthanc, the other is either CU or MM. IMHO Tolkien's view should trump all others.

CU and MM aer the same tower. To direct a movie about such a complicated choice of towers must mean he has some knowledge of which.

Which are the Two Towers?

What is the combonation of "The Two Towers"

Barad Dur and Minas Tirith

Barad Dur and Orthanc

Orthanc and Minas Tirith

Orthanc and Minas Morgul

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