Which are the Two Towers?

LadyGaladriel · Jul 13, 2002

I think I have the 4th Edition

Rúmil · Jul 13, 2002

Yes, that would be it: the passage you quote was hastily written at the end of vol1, it is not canonical at all, even erronious. The best edition, IMO, is the HarperCollins 1 vol edition, 1991 (some small corrections from the 1968) . It is also good to have the 1st edtion of 1954, for references in Tolkien's letters, for example.

ps: 100th post BTW

Arahiriel · Jul 15, 2002

If you see a trailer for TTT, they suggest in there that TTT are Barad-dur and Orthanc.

Rúmil · Jul 16, 2002

Well as we all know the Film is not much of a reference

Cian · Jul 16, 2002

Except for Istari breakdancing moves

pohuist · Jul 19, 2002

I really don't get why do you guys are beating the dead horse. It was proven long before on this thread that it is Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

The breakdance post is awesome, though

Arahiriel · Jul 19, 2002

I suppose it really doesn't matter which Towers they are. Whatever they are, they are.

Maeglin · Jul 28, 2002

Its Orthanc and Cirith Ungol, I think thats kind of obvious since they're the only two actually in the story.

Grond · Jul 28, 2002

Originally posted by pohuist
I really don't get why do you guys are beating the dead horse. It was proven long before on this thread that it is Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

The breakdance post is awesome, though

pohuist, have you read this thread in its entirety? The author has never made a definitive determination as to what two towers the title meant. In the letters of JRRT he states it could be Minis Tirith and Barad-dur, Barad-dur and Orthanc, Orthanc and Minas Morgul.... etc. etc. etc.

This subject is not a dead horse. It is one of those riddles that each reader gets to answer themselves.

Walter · Jul 29, 2002

nothing entirely new, but my 2cents anyway...

"The Two Towers" gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dûr, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol. *) - (Letter #140)

*) In a subsequent letter to Rayner Unwin (no. 143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-homed (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name. Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (The Fellowship of the Ring p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgûl flies.

and here is said passage of Letter #143:

I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. - Letter # 143

What gives? ... Scio me nihil scire....

Maeglin · Jul 29, 2002

I know Grond I read that part of the thread, but it only seems logical that it would be Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. It could be the others, but thats just what I think.

pohuist · Jul 29, 2002

Originally posted by Grond

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by pohuist
I really don't get why do you guys are beating the dead horse. It was proven long before on this thread that it is Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

The breakdance post is awesome, though
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

pohuist, have you read this thread in its entirety? The author has never made a definitive determination as to what two towers the title meant. In the letters of JRRT he states it could be Minis Tirith and Barad-dur, Barad-dur and Orthanc, Orthanc and Minas Morgul.... etc. etc. etc.

This subject is not a dead horse. It is one of those riddles that each reader gets to answer themselves

GROND, Contradicting yourself, eh?

Originally posted by Grond
From my earliest reading of the work in 1973, I assumed (wrongly) that the author was referring to Orthanc and Barad-dur. The novel seemed to be about the partnership between the two and I felt it 'fit'.

When I finally read the Letters of JRRT and they make it clear that the author deemed Orthanc and Cirith Ungol to be the two to which the story referred. This is very logical if one thinks about it. Book 3 details the Broken Fellowship pursuing the Uruk-hai of Orthanc and ultimately the defeat of Saruman and the fall of Orthanc to the Ents. Thus Book 3 could have easily been entitled "The Fall of Orthanc".

Book 4 details Frodo and Samwise's passage along the edge of Mordor from the Dead Marshes to the Morannon to their final ascent into the mountains beyond Minas Morgul which ultimately ended with Frodo's capture in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Thus Book 4 could have easily been entitled "Trapped in the Tower of Cirith Ungol". Looking at it this way makes it very easy for me to understand how the author decided upon which two towers to focus.

Grond · Jul 29, 2002

Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
I know Grond I read that part of the thread, but it only seems logical that it would be Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. It could be the others, but thats just what I think.

And to this comment, I totally agree. As I stated long ago, at first I thought it was Orthanc and Barad-dur because of the linkage via the Palantari but linking book three and four makes it clear that it should be Orthanc and Minas Morgul or Cirith Ungol.

Grond · Jul 29, 2002

Originally posted by pohuist
GROND, Contradicting yourself, eh?

pohuist, the quote you cited was made before I owned the Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien which showed the author's own dissatisfaction with the title and his confusion on which Two Towers the title referred to. I should have been clearer in my explanations though.

pohuist · Jul 29, 2002

I think that the letter #143, which was written later than letter #140 controls.
JRRT is dissatisfied with the title, but his dissatisfaction is not the topic of this thread. (which are the two towers?), on which JRRT answers if it must be the Two Towers it SHOULD be Orthanc and Cirith Ungol (not a direct quote, emphasis added).

Cian · Jul 29, 2002

By chronology the drawing (Orthanc and Minas Morgul) is later than both letters.
JRRT likely knew he would be 'answering' the question in a sense had the drawing been used as a dust jacket (it has been ultimately used in at least one edition I know of) ... unless there is something "more" (that I'm currently unaware of) that throws doubt on the illustration.

But if chronology rules, the drawing follows the letter, as can be gleaned from JRRT Artist and Illustrator.

pohuist · Jul 30, 2002

I haven't seen the drawing, so I can't either agree or disagree with you (on a subject of it being likely used as a dust cover, and not merely a drawing of Orthanc and MM. I assume you're right about the chronology). But that hasn't come up before on this thread and you have a valid point. Still though, the letter expressely says something while a drawing may not necessarily represent anything besiders just being a drawing. My book, BTW, is a one volume Unwin paperback edition and there is only one tower on the cover. I think its Barad-dur, but I am not sure. Maybe someone can help?

Cian · Jul 30, 2002

There is an edition with Tolkien's drawing of Barad-dûr on it for ROTK, though that doesn't help you

But yes the drawing showing Orthanc and Minas Morgul was specifically at the request for dust jacket designs, and includes the title.

~ an earlier sketch had "probably Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith" (quotes from JRRT A&I) ~ then a new sketch with Orthanc and Minas Morgul ~ then a "final rendering" with Orthanc/Minas Morgul seemed to be his "suggestion" here.

Rayner Unwin suggested that the same design (a version of the Fellowship cover) be used on all three covers. Tolkien basically said OK (though that's the short version!) adding that he was only offering suggestions.

pohuist · Jul 30, 2002

Originally posted by Cian
There is an edition with Tolkien's drawing of Barad-dûr on it for ROTK, though that doesn't help you

~ an earlier sketch had "probably Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith" (quotes from JRRT A&I) ~ then a new sketch with Orthanc and Minas Morgul ~ then a "final rendering" with Orthanc/Minas Morgul seemed to be his "suggestion" here.

The book cover was a side question. Thanks.

As for the rest, sorry, quotes from anyone about Tolkien's intentions and even Tolkien's pictures convince me far less than Tolkien's words. I will stick to my position. And, logically speaking, the TT is mostly about Orthanc and CU, don't you agree?

Grond · Jul 30, 2002

Originally posted by pohuist

The book cover was a side question. Thanks.

As for the rest, sorry, quotes from anyone about Tolkien's intentions and even Tolkien's pictures convince me far less than Tolkien's words. I will stick to my position. And, logically speaking, the TT is mostly about Orthanc and CU, don't you agree?

I absolutely agree with your assertion... it just is apparent that the author never conclusively liked the idea of the title and left the choice of which towers it portrayed ambiguous on purpose.

As I have stated in the past, at first (in 1973) I thought the author was referring to the Tower of Barad-dur and Orthanc for the obvious Palantari connection. It wasn't until several readings later that I realized that Cirith Ungol was a tower. (I know it sounds stupid since Frodo was apparently being held at the top of a tower.) Later, I realized the Minas Morgul was a tower and felt it was likely Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Later, realizing that Frodo was being held in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, logic got the better of me and I realized that the Two Towers were obviously Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. Then I read the Letters and realized that the author was as confused as was I.

Which are the Two Towers?

What is the combonation of "The Two Towers"

Barad Dur and Minas Tirith

Barad Dur and Orthanc

Orthanc and Minas Tirith

Orthanc and Minas Morgul

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