Who is the best swordsman in all middle earth and arda history?

Turin_Turambar · Dec 14, 2021

The Golden Flower said:
I was split between Turin and Fingolfin on voting, but in the end decided Fingolfin was superior. As an elf, he has got to be superior, plus his battle with melkor gives him the upper hand.

Turin fought much better than the best high elves of his time. Turin was much stronger than a normal human. Also, Turin slays melkor in Dagor Dagorath.

Elthir said:
The Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned by Tolkien.

"Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos." JRRT, Morgoth's Ring, Christopher Tolkien, the constructed Silmarillion

"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255)." Christopher Tolkien

The second prophecy of Mandos was abandoned not by Tolkien, but by his son, Christopher, and was removed from the Silmarillion. Christopher Tolkien thinks that his father has given up on Mandos's second prophecy. And removes it from the Silmarillion.
source;http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath
According to Christopher Tolkien, the Dagor Dagorath as a Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned by Tolkien.

m4r35n357 · Dec 15, 2021

Elthir said:
We also have Tolkien's notes to the Athrabeth Commentary (as no one calls it), specifically note 7, in which JRRT describes the End of Arda (well, sort of) as the Elves imagined it, including the End Times description at the end of the Silmarillion (as it still stood). Tolkien writes:

"It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin*; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition." JRRT, Morgoth's Ring

*note 19 " . . . in so far as this reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333,... ) the Prophecy of Mandos." Christopher Tolkien

Again, Second Prophecy . . . gone 💥

I haven't got any more than this, but to my reading "The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion" seems to be at odds with the word "gone".

Usual problems trying to make sense of post-1951 writings

Ealdwyn · Dec 15, 2021

Well Fingolfin seems to be the favourite so far.

I'm curious: who voted "other" and what would be their choice?

m4r35n357 · Dec 15, 2021

Ealdwyn said:
Well Fingolfin seems to be the favourite so far.

I'm curious: who voted "other" and what would be their choice?

Perhaps Samwise gets a mention for his untrained swordsmanship in crippling Shelob?

Squint-eyed Southerner · Dec 15, 2021

He was apparently better than "old Ufthak", at least. 😀

m4r35n357 · Dec 15, 2021

Yes, Grisly Tolkien - more please!

Elthir · Dec 15, 2021

m4r35n357 said:
I haven't got any more than this, but to my reading "The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion" seems to be at odds with the word "gone".

Usual problems trying to make sense of post-1951 writings

But it isn't at odds as I see it . . . the Second Prophecy of Mandos is gone.

A Mannish myth of Númenórean origin is not a prophecy from a Vala.

m4r35n357 · Dec 15, 2021

Elthir said:
But it isn't at odds as I see it . . . the Second Prophecy of Mandos is gone.

A Mannish myth of Númenórean origin is not a prophecy from a Vala.

OK I see what you mean now.

Elthir · Dec 15, 2021

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:
According to Christopher Tolkien, the Dagor Dagorath as a Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned by Tolkien.

According to Christopher Tolkien, the Second Prophecy of Mandos was definitively abandoned by JRR Tolkien, and Christopher Tolkien provides the evidence for this in The History of Middle-Earth series, some of which I have quoted more than once in these glittering halls.

Christopher Tolkien never stated that the Dagor Dagorath was abandoned, but he (once again) provides the Tolkien written evidence for the description at the end of Quenta Silmarillion (which had before been the Second Prophecy of Mandos) becoming a mannish myth of Númenórean origin.

This is a notable re-characterization from JRRT, which goes hand in hand with Christopher Tolkien's evidence that the Second Prophecy was abandoned.

Moreover, we can also add the prophecy of Andreth here, which arguably raises questions, at least, as to Túrin's role in any "end times scenario" -- a point that we've discussed before if I recall correctly.

🐾

Turin_Turambar · Dec 15, 2021

Elthir said:
According to Christopher Tolkien, the Second Prophecy of Mandos was definitively abandoned by JRR Tolkien, and Christopher Tolkien provides the evidence for this in The History of Middle-Earth series, some of which I have quoted more than once in these glittering halls.

Christopher Tolkien never stated that the Dagor Dagorath was abandoned, but he (once again) provides the Tolkien written evidence for the description at the end of Quenta Silmarillion (which had before been the Second Prophecy of Mandos) becoming a mannish myth of Númenórean origin.

This is a notable re-characterization from JRRT, which goes hand in hand with Christopher Tolkien's evidence that the Second Prophecy was abandoned.

Moreover, we can also add the prophecy of Andreth here, which arguably raises questions, at least, as to Túrin's role in any "end times scenario" -- a point that we've discussed before if I recall correctly.

🐾

yes, we have discussed this before. I don't know if tolkien changed the second prophecy of mandos into numenor prophecy. But I must say that most tolkien readers, thinkers, researchers and scientists think that tolkien put both the numenor prophecy and the second prophecy of mandos in the same scenario and the prophecy of both sides is the same prophecy. Even if it is not the same prophecy, they think that it is in the same story like Andreth's prophecy. You may think differently. I respect it. but the second prophecy of mandos is the most suitable end for the history of middle earth. because turin kills melkor in return for his sufferings and feanor breaks the silmarils and a new world is formed with the light that comes out and then all races are included in the second music of ainur, I think it is an invaluable ending. wouldn't you get emotional and cry?

m4r35n357 · Dec 16, 2021

Elthir said:
According to Christopher Tolkien, the Second Prophecy of Mandos was definitively abandoned by JRR Tolkien, and Christopher Tolkien provides the evidence for this in The History of Middle-Earth series, some of which I have quoted more than once in these glittering halls.
🐾

I accept that JRRT repurposed the Silmarillion to "humanize the histories", but as far as I can tell he never actually wrote one (Pengolod & AElfwine are still there in HoME)!

I read the published Silmarillion as a Hobbit-ish version of the legends, but that says nothing about Elvish legends, which is basically the text we have raw access to through HoME. The fact that the Silmarillion is "now" a mannish legend prohibits neither Mandos making any prophesies, nor the Elves reporting them

It just means we have more than one Tale of the Jewels, with diferent traditions and methods of transmission, which I believe you have accepted elsewhere

Elthir · Dec 16, 2021

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:
yes, we have discussed this before. I don't know if tolkien changed the second prophecy of mandos into numenor prophecy.

I do! And I've provided the reference from HOME

But not "prophecy" . . . Tolkien re-characterized it as a Mannish myth of Numenorean origin.

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:
But I must say that most tolkien readers, thinkers, researchers and scientists think that tolkien put both the numenor prophecy and the second prophecy of mandos in the same scenario . . .

I can't accept this "most" claim or yours without evidence . . . but what I can say is there is no evidence (that I'm aware of) in The History of Middle-Earth series that the Dagor Dagorath description (not the Second Prophecy, as that was abandoned, as evidenced by Christopher Tolkien), and the Andreth Prophecy were meant to be included in the same scenario.

Christopher Tolkien doesn't even know.

Perhaps interestingly, for the constructed Silmarillion, Christopher Tolkien included: " . . . and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forbodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days." The Silmarillion, Of The Coming Of The Elves

Or for example (Akallabeth): " . . . were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom."

Now, the Annals of Aman version included that Menelmacar was a sign of "Túrin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshadowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days."

Nothing here about dealing Melkor his death blow anyway, but in the same general phase of writing, the Quenta Silmarillion version did not mention Túrin here. Thus Christopher Tolkien had a choice (as we know he used parts of the Annals of Aman for his constructed Silmarillion), and I'd guess he chose the Quenta Silmarillion version (no Túrin) because of the question the Andreth Prophecy arguably raises.

[unless CJRT didn't know about the Andreth prophecy at the time, but I don't recall, at the moment, him noting that The Problem of Ros was unknown to him in the 1970s).

Squint-eyed Southerner · Dec 16, 2021

Elthir · Dec 16, 2021

m4r35n357 said:
I accept that JRRT repurposed the Silmarillion to "humanize the histories", but as far as I can tell he never actually wrote one (Pengolod & AElfwine are still there in HoME)!

My stance is that Tolkien realized he didn't need to write a Silmarillion based on Myths Transformed, since the re-characterization of the Silmarillion as largely a mannish work solved his problem.

And Ælfwine drops out after the later 1950s texts, if I recall correctly. The Numenorean slash Bilbo transmission takes over after that.

But Pengoloð continues into late texts, and need never drop out! He's an Elf who knows stuff and can write texts, or comment on texts, and he has an internal history.

m4r35n357 said:
The fact that the Silmarillion is "now" a mannish legend prohibits neither Mandos making any prophesies, nor the Elves reporting them

Agreed. Tolkien abandoned the Second prophecy of Mandos, not the Elves

m4r35n357 said:
It just means we have more than one Tale of the Jewels, with diferent traditions and methods of transmission, which I believe you have accepted elsewhere

I accept the general idea of the legendarium containing various authors and perspectives. Beyond that, I'd be looking for evidence, and slash or compelling argument based on something (again, generally speaking).

But anyway, I'd need to know what the argument here is specifically (?) Not exactly sure right now.

m4r35n357 · Dec 16, 2021

Elthir said:
But anyway, I'd need to know what the argument here is specifically (?) Not exactly sure right now.

Personal preferences, I think!

Elthir · Dec 16, 2021

m4r35n357 said:
Personal preferences, I think!

Well then I prefer to think that I won this argument . . . whatever it was!

uh oh, Ando is grumbling at me!

Squint-eyed Southerner · Dec 16, 2021

According to a late source*, you're all wrong -- Turin fought in the Dagger Daggerrath.

* Known only to me 😊

Who is the best swordsman in all middle earth and arda history?

Who is the best swordsman in all middle earth and arda history?

Fingolfin

Feanor

Ecthelion

Glorfindel

Maedhros

Maglor

Hurin

Turin turambar

Fingon

Turgon

Elrond

Gil-galad

Cirdan

Finarfin

Celebrimbor

Beren

Finrod

Aragorn

Other

Mormegil

Member

wandering over the misty mountains cold

Member

Lost in the Chetwood

Member

Cat in a Coat

Member

Cat in a Coat

Mormegil

Member

Cat in a Coat

Lost in the Chetwood

Cat in a Coat

Member

Cat in a Coat

Lost in the Chetwood

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