Who is the oldest? Bombadil or Treebeard

[Eonwe]

LOL!!!!

"but the price is a killer" -- RD!

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
At last Ulari, flattery may be getting you somewhere. It is not a quote, just a statement of fact. For me to take credit for it, would be to plagiarize most of the adult population of our planet. What I said was from my own mind, but I'm sure it's been said thousands, if not millions of times over the millenia. Send it in under your own name.

I suppose I will. Pity really. I guess the old flattery trick seems to be getting to Grond and then my plans will be complete. Then I will learn all there is to know about Tolkien, gain even greater knowledge on the topic than Harad and Grond put together (is that possible?) and then the apprentice of Grond i.e. me will overthrow his master i.e. Grond. And then Ulairi will take over the forum and gather hundreds of follwers puissantly sending them under his dominion, and then will overthrow the webmaster and ReadWryt and all the other Moderators (except for the ones who joined me!) and Ulairi will rule the forum!

MUUUUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Grond]

Ulari, somebody needs to get a REAL life.

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
Ulari, somebody needs to get a REAL life.

Sadly for you Grond, I already do, and it's a good life too. I just thought for once I'd add a little humour to my threads, but it doesn't seem like a real hit.

 

[entbabe]

________________________

Orignally posted by Sam_Gamgee

i think tom is the oldest but i think treebeard has been in ME longer because i think tom is a valar so i think hes older but came to ME after treebeard was "born" (for lack of use of a better word)
________________________

Originally posted by Grond
Gothmog and Thorin beat me to the punch. Tom is not a living thing. He is something else. I personally believe him to be one of the Ainur from the Void that did not go to Aman but....

Treebeard is at the time of the War of the Ring, the oldest living creature on Middle-earth.
________________________.

I agree with Grond and Sam to a degree. My gut feeling (if I'm allowed to have one about Tolkien's work!) is that Tom is either one of the Valar (even Orome in another form than Aldaron Lord of the Forests?) or even a manifestation of Illuvatar himself.

I mean where is Eru during the creations and battlesacross Arda? Is he meant to be like our Judeo-Christian God? Always here but never around? Perhaps as Tom he can be free and still live in Arda in a physical manifestation. He's one of the coolest characters in LOTR for sure.

Anyway, to get back to the point, If Tom was around before the stars and Melkor came out of the dark then he is surely the oldest. There's something in this ...need to go back and read some more Treebeard was created after Yavanna found out about the Children of Illuvatar to protect the forests (mostly from Men as the Elves loved the trees too).

PS: Has anyone read Tolkien's The Adventures of Tom Bombadil? I am trying to find a copy but not much luck yet...

 

[Úlairi]

entbabe, if you'd kindly divert your gaze back to the first page, I have provided specific evidence as to why Tom could NOT be either Iluvatar, Valar, or Maiar. Grond and I reached a stalemate as we will never know where Bombadil is from.

 

[Wonko The Sane]

Dear people,

Who cares! It doesn't matter who's older.


Worry about more important things. Like how Pippin could finish a whole pint.

 

[Rangerdave]

Re: Dear people,

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
Worry about more important things. Like how Pippin could finish a whole pint.

They come in Pints!

RD

 

[Wonko The Sane]

HA! You liked that?

That post came unbidden out of my own head.

I'm wicked clever like that.



Pippin is my hero. I love his cuteness.

Yay! Pints...mmm....

 

[entbabe]

Originally posted by Ulairi
entbabe?

Ulairi I didn't think you required a response based on the conclusiveness of your last response. I'm new to this forum and it appears that there is nothing that has not already been turned out and pulled inside out... so usually i'm happy to just read, but rash opinions make better reading wouldn't you say?

I've also discovered the fantatsic Encyclopedia of Arda which details this very matter is an easy to read manner. Although i'm sure you are all aware of it, here is the link anyway:

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Well, to throw the last of my two cents worth in.... I think Tolkein created Tom as a character to fall outside of all the Middle Earth tales, central to them in some way but also not easily understood. Perhaps he did it as a way of showing that his stories could never tell the entire Story, and so enabling the story to always continue...unfinished but always moving with a certain mystery if you like. That would exlpain why there is even a TolkienForum...to discuss topics like this in all their wondrous indefinability.

As for who is older...i'm starting to think it's me

 

[Úlairi]

Yes, I am aware of the link. How old are you entbabe?

 

[christopher]

Sauron

The Silmarillion isn't my strongest point; but isn't it so that Sauron was already there in the Beginning, perhaps not in the Void, but soon after the music became a 'solid mass' or the Earth if you will. He probably wasn't in the service of Melkor then, but I get the feeling that he was there? Later he moved to Middle-Earth, making him the oldest being there?
This is of course not about the initial statement whether Tolkien contradicted himself. However, by judging that Sauron is the oldest, this discussion becomes redundant.


Chr. Fingolfin

 

[Walter]

I really don't want to get involved in the discussion of the topic, for I think the matter has already been settled, but I thought I could drop in some background info on Tom I find amusing. Many of You will already know it, but maybe not all of You:

Among other stories begun but soon abandoned was the tale of Tom Bombadil, which is set in “The days of King Bonhedig” and describes a character who is clearly to be the hero of the tale: “Tom Bombadil was the name of one of the oldest inhabitants of the kingdom; but he was a hale and hearty fellow. Four foot high in his boots he was, and three feet broad. He wore a tall hat with a blue feather, his jacket was blue, and his boots were yellow.”
That was as far as the story ever reached on paper, but Tom Bombadil was a well-known figure in the Tolkien family, for the character was based on a Dutch doll that belonged to Michael. The doll looked very splendid with the feather in its hat, but John did not like it and one day stuffed it down the lavatory. Tom was rescued. and survived to become the hero of a poem by the children's father, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil”. which was published in the Oxford Magazine in 1934. It tells of Tom's encounters with “Goldberry, the River-woman's daughter”, with the “Old Man Willow” which shuts him up in a crack of its bole (an idea, Tolkien once said, that probably came in part from Arthur Rackham's tree-drawings), with a family of badgers, and with a “Barrow-wight”, a ghost from a prehistoric grave of the type found on the Berkshire Downs not far from Oxford. By itself, the poem seems like a sketch for something longer, and when possible successors to The Hobbit were being discussed in 1937 Tolkien suggested to his publishers that he might expand it into a more substantial tale, explaining that Tom Bombadil was intended to represent “the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside”. This idea was not taken up by the publishers, but Tom and his adventures subsequently found their way into The Lord of the Rings.

Technically the first plot of JRRT that mentions "Tree Beard" is from August 1939 (TRotS, P381) which means he is a few years younger than Tom.

Another point that hasn't been mentioned yet (or that has escaped my attention ): Within the context of ME Tom is not considered a "creature", whereas Treebeard is, hence there is no contradiction between the first quotes of this thread...

 

[Úlairi]

This has already been touched on, no where does Tolkien refer to Ben-adar not being a 'creature'. For all we know, he could be.

 

[christopher]

Sauron

Ulairi, what do you think about the Sauron remark I posted???

Chr. Fingolfin

 

[Úlairi]

Sauron moved to Middle-earth after many beings. Melkor and some of the Valar. Bombadil and the Ents may have been a part of the Third Symphony. There were many 'creatures' roaming ME before Sauron went there I assure you. Therefore, my argument was not and is not redundant, as I took this into account.

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ulairi
This has already been touched on, no where does Tolkien refer to Ben-adar not being a 'creature'. For all we know, he could be.

Well, of course Tom - the Tom Bombadil we meet in the LotR - is a creature, Tolkien's creature...

 

[christopher]

Ulairi, I may be misinterpreting you, but by saying that Bombadil and the Ents may have been part of the 3rd symphony, are you saying that Sauron was not.
I think that the Maiar (Sauron being one) were already part of the music before it become a being in the void. My thought is that the Ents were created at the same time as the elves, therefore after the Maiar.
Having thought about it, wasn't Tom a Maia gone native, and therefore as old as Sauron probably. In that case it's all a matter who came to Middle-Earth first. He who came first is the oldest inhabitant of Middle-Earth.



P.S. How old would Goldberry be?

Chr. Fingolfin

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by christopher
I think that the Maiar (Sauron being one) were already part of the music before it become a being in the void.

Why do I waste my time? The Ainur were there in the beginning with Iluvatar, after he had created them and then they made the music.

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.

Get your facts right and go and read some books.

Originally posted by christopher
...are you saying that Sauron was not.

Of course I am. Sauron was one of the Ainur, therefore he was there before the music began, wasn't he?

Originally posted by christopher
My thought is that the Ents were created at the same time as the elves,

We will never know. But I believe that they were created before.

Originally posted by christopher
...wasn't Tom a Maia gone native, and therefore as old as Sauron probably.

Nope. I have clearly shown that Bombadil was neither Maiar, Valar or even Iluvatar for that matter on the previous page.

Originally posted by christopher
He who came first is the oldest inhabitant of Middle-Earth.

Obviously. But, we can neither clarify whether or not Bombadil was a 'living creature'. This is where the contradiction comes from whether or not it is a contradiction at all. If Bombadil was a living creature, there would be a contradiction in Tolkien's writings. If Bombadil was not a living creature, then there would be no contradiction. But, we will never know if Bombadil was or was not a living creature. And seeing as he is neither Iluvatar, Valar or Maiar, the only way we can deduct whether or not he is a living creature is to find out where Bombadil came from, but, we will never know that. So, christopher, could you and your mediocre intellect go somewhere else please? I am bored and I want this thread lain to rest.

 

[Walter]

Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: 'O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." But dost thou not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'
Then Yavanna was glad, and she stood up, reaching her arms towards the heavens, and she said: 'High shall climb the trees of Kementári, that the Eagles of the King may house therein!'
But Manwë rose also, and it seemed that he stood to such a height that his voice came down to Yavanna as from the paths of the winds.
'Nay,' he said, 'only the trees of Aule will be tall enough. In the mountains the Eagles shall house, and hear the voices of those who call upon us. But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees.'
(Of Aule and Yavanna)