Who is the oldest? Bombadil or Treebeard

[Úlairi]

And this means what Walter???

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ulairi
And this means what Walter???

I just wanted to post what I have found concerning the first appearance of Ents on M-E in relation to the awaking of the firstborn - as it was part of the discussion in an earlier post - and from this quote it seems to me they came about the same time...

 

[Úlairi]

Ah! Now I see Walter! Good point. Hmmmm, makes sense.

 

[Wonko The Sane]

I'd just like to take a moment to refer to my last comment:

Who cares who's older!! Worry about more important things.

Like how Pippin could finish a whole pint.

 

[Walter]

Wonko,

some of Your comments are funny, others pure nonsense, some do even contribute a little to the discussions going on. Alas - the nonsense comments outnumber the others by far.

Do You think You could try to be a little more "productive" than "destructive"? I am sure a few members here would really appreciate that...

 

[Wonko The Sane]

Sure. I'll be productive.

Bombadil was older.
He was there before the trees.

The End.

How's that?

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
Sure. I'll be productive.

Bombadil was older.
He was there before the trees.

The End.

How's that?

sarcastic...

just...still not productive

 

[Wonko The Sane]

I'm not being sarcastic.
I'm perfectly serious.

I'm so straigtfaced my profile looks like a horizontal line.

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
I'm not being sarcastic.
I'm perfectly serious.

I'm so straigtfaced my profile looks like a horizontal line.

*shrugs*

 

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Ulairi

Nope. I have clearly shown that Bombadil was neither Maiar, Valar or even Iluvatar for that matter on the previous page.

Ulairi, you did not clearly show that Bombadil was neither Maiar, Valar or even Iluvatar. You just presented an argument to that effect. There are many arguments to the contrary. For example, the Encyclopedia of Arda provides a link to a very well (IMO) written and persuasive essay that argues otherwise.

 

[Úlairi]

pohuist! So nice to see you! Where ya been ol' buddy o' mine!!!

Originally posted by pohuist
Ulairi, you did not clearly show that Bombadil was neither Maiar, Valar or even Iluvatar. You just presented an argument to that effect. There are many arguments to the contrary. For example, the Encyclopedia of Arda provides a link to a very well (IMO) written and persuasive essay that argues otherwise.

Grond agreed with it, I cannot see why you can't! However, that is not the answer you are looking for. The Encyclopaedia of Arda is a 'post-humous' book in which not entirely everything is given a proper look into, such as the issue on Bombadil. However, I derived my 'argument' or 'theory' or whatever you wish to call it from J.R.R. Tolkien's publications. Therefore, my argument is far more iron-clad then yours.

 

[Walter]

Here's another statement of Tolkien that shows he intentionally left the reader in the uncertainty about Tom (from Letter 144):

And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

 

[Rangerdave]

I agree with Pohuist

Originally posted by Ulairi
Grond agreed with it, I cannot see why you can't! I derived my 'argument' or 'theory' or whatever you wish to call it from J.R.R. Tolkien's publications. Therefore, my argument is far more iron-clad then yours.

But that is the crux of the biscuit is it not. Professor Tolkien was adamant in presenting Tom as an enigma. Very non-iron clad. However, Your arguements are sound. I do believe that you have reached the most likely correct assesment of the question. But while your conclusions are sound, poingnant and most probably correct: they are by no means difinitive.

Defend your argument, I will defend it right along with you. I believe as you do on this one. Just allow that being right is much easier than proving you're right. Accept that other possibilities (however unlikely) may both exist and be of great worth.

The question of Tom has always been more a matter or faith than reason. And that, I believe is how both Tom and Tolkien would have wanted it.

RD

 

[Úlairi]

Couldn't agree more RD. Thankyou for the back-up. As for Walter, I knew of that Letter, even though I have not read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Tolkien decribed Bombadil as an enigma, and an enigma he shall remain.

 

[Walter]

So now the matter is settled and we're all happy again...


Or...wait a moment...let's have a further look at what has been quoted before from the Sil:

When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.

Now what could that mean?

 

[Eomer Dinmention]

I remember Treebeard saying something.

Have a look in the chapter where Pippin & Merry meet Treebeard.

Treebeard says something about, there are other ents that are older then himself

 

[Elu Thingol]

Bombadil is older I HAVE PROOF

Here is a quote directly from the 1st book that clearly states Bombadil is older

" 'Eh, What?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom.'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the TREES; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big people and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless-before the Dark Lord came from Outside.' " (The Fellowship of the Ring Chapter 7 pg.182 parag.3 authorized edition)

There are a number of references in this quote that would lead you to believe Tom is the oldest thing on middle-earth it says right in the quote he is older than the trees.

 

[Úlairi]

That quote has already been brought to my attention. In fact, that quote is how I derived the contradiction as in 'The White Rider' Gandalf the White says:

"Treebeard is the oldest creature to walk under the sun of Middle-earth."

So, if Bombadil says that he is the oldest, and Gandalf the White says Treebeard/Fangorn is the oldest, then, who is the oldest. If you read through the whole thread Mithrandir2003, then you will find that throughout Tolkien's books there is no way to either prove or disprove a contradiction outlined here in Tolkien's works.

**********Post edited by Ancalagon.
Ulairi, you have been warned before about making personal and insulting remarks to members regarding their contribution. Take this as a final warning as any more derogatory remarks will result in direct action being taken against you. All moderators are now aware of this warning.********

 

[Walter]

Welcome to this forum, Mithrandir

We appreciate that You are taking part in the debate and, yes, You found a quote that is actually important on this topic. But the quote You presented, has already been posted by Gothmog at the very first page of this thread.

 

[Elu Thingol]

oops sry

Sorry about that I didn't read the whole first page only about half of it. Next time I'll be sure to read the whole thing. Once again sry.