Who is the oldest? Bombadil or Treebeard

[Úlairi]

Who is the oldest?

There is a contradiction as to who is the oldest creature on ME is. Here are a couple of quotes from 'The Lord of the Rings':

"I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than the old. That was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless."

On the next page it says:

"I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First."

These are the words of Elrond and Glorfindel. Later in the novel(s) Gandalf the White after being found for the first time by Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli:

"Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth."

Has Tolkien contradicted himself in his writings? Has Ulairi found yet another contradiction in the complex world of Tolkien? What do you guys think? Thoughts please.

 

[Úlairi]

Is anyone going to post?

 

[Niniel]

I was just wondering about this myself, because I didn't know it either. The only thing I can think of is that one of them (I suppose Bombadil) is not really a living creature, but a spirit or something.

 

[Elias]

I think that Tom Bombadil is the eldest I can't you reason why because this is only my opinion to this. It might be that the only person who had the answer to this was Tokien himself. I don't believe that Tolkien has contradicted himself.

I'm not the smartest person to answer this.

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Elias
I think that Tom Bombadil is the eldest I can't you reason why because this is only my opinion to this. It might be that the only person who had the answer to this was Tokien himself. I don't believe that Tolkien has contradicted himself.

I'm not the smartest person to answer this.

Originally posted by Elias
I don't believe that Tolkien has contradicted himself.

Well, we'll be the judge of that.

Originally posted by Elias
I don't believe that Tolkien has contradicted himself.

No offence, but I agree. Anyone else? Grond? Ancalagon?

 

[Rangerdave]

Ok, I will leave Tom out of this. Lets face, nobody has any solid evidence either what or how old Tom is except Tom. And he aint talkin' so I aint walkin'.

My question is about the Ents. Remember in the Sil that Eru commanded the creations of Aule (Dwarves) to sleep under the mountains until after the coming of the Elves? Well, why would he not restrict the Ents in the same fashion? I guess is that the Ents are the children of Yavanna to guard the green.

So the Elves came first, but maybe only by moments. But since we have no direct evidence of who the very first Elf was, he may not have survived. In that case Fangorn (Treebeard) may very well be the Oldest of any of the races that we know of. So: If Treebeard is the Oldest of his race, and his race is nearly as old as the Elves; He may very well be oldest of all known species.

Tom is not a race or a species, Tom is Tom. Therefor Tom can not be counted among the races of Middle-Earth. This makes his age of no consequence in deteriming who is first.

Besides, even the wisest of Elves and Wizards can make mistakes when they don't have all the facts.


Of course, I am just guessing here.
RD

 

[Gothmog]

I do not believe that Tolkien contradicted himself in this matter. It is a matter of fact that at the time when Gandalf spoke these words to Theoden he knew that he was talking about something that was a lot younger tham himself. So it would seem that Gandalf did not concider himself a 'Living Creature' of Middle-earth. Gandalf also knew Tom Bombadil and knew how long he had been there. It is likely that while Tolkien saw fit to ensure that we would have no hard evidence of what Tom is, Gandalf would know (or know enough to put him also outside the class of 'Living Creature' in the same way.

It shown that Gandalf did indeed know much of Tom Bombadil by the way he talked about him later:

'But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.'

From The Return of the King: The Scouring of the Shire.

So I think that Tom Bombadil was the First, But Treebeard was still the 'Oldest living creature'.

 

[Thorin]

Okay, here we go....

Bombadil (whatever he is) seems to not have been a created being....He said he was in ME before the first acorn and before the elves moved West (after they awoke)....

Treebeard is the oldest living creature on ME, even though he said that the elves awoke him....The elves came before Treebeard but the elves that awoke him are all dead or passed on to Valinor.....Therefore, Treebeard is older then Galadriel and Cirdan (Cirdan being about 10500 years old)....

So Bombadil is the Eldest, but as for created living beings, Treebeard is still the oldest....

Hope that helps.

 

[Grond]

Gothmog and Thorin beat me to the punch. Tom is not a living thing. He is something else. I personally believe him to be one of the Ainur from the Void that did not go to Aman but....

Treebeard is at the time of the War of the Ring, the oldest living creature on Middle-earth.

 

[ILLOTRTM]

Forgive me if I'm way off target, but the way I always saw it was that (Well, besides that Tom is not a living thing) Tolkien says that Bombadill is older than... well I can't remember what he said, but he named some things, like the sun, or something. That doesn't mean he's the oldest thing on ME. Am I making any sense to anyone at all?

 

[Gothmog]

'Eh, what?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

From The Fellowship of the Ring: The House of Tom Bombadil.

Yes he was there to see it all unfold. The question still revolves around whether or not he is classed as a 'Living Creature' by Gandalf. It is this point on which I have based my views.

And ILLOTRTM, yes your are making sense even if you could not find the quote you wanted. Carry on posting. Soon you will be in the same position as the rest of us. (Confused when you walk in the real? world.)

 

[Bucky]

I think the 'loophole' to avoid contradiction is in Treebeard being called the Oldest Living creature.

Who was in ME first?
Obviously Tom, as he was there before an acorn even fell, which to me means before any trees.


>>>>Has Ulairi found yet another contradiction in the complex world of Tolkien? What do you guys think? Thoughts please.

Bucky thinks that people who refer to themselves in the first person need a serving of humble pie.



BTW, I (& many others here I'm sure) wondered about that since long before you were potty trained, so you haven't found a thing we didn't already know........

 

[Sam_Gamgee]

i think tom is the oldest but i think treebeard has been in ME longer because i think tom is a valar so i think hes older but came to ME after treebeard was "born" (for lack of use of a better word)

 

[Viceras Daydark]

Just my thought on this:

Gimli often stated "facts" that were indeed falsehoods. As it is a character talking, and not Tolkien himself, I don't think its a contradiction.

And though I don't like my opinion of this, I would say Gandalf exagerated, but not too much. Old, Treebeard was. Older than any living thing in Arda, save for Bombadil perhaps. Gandalf, more or less, was correct. Words for such an age would be difficult to find.

-Viceras Daydark

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Welcomke Vicreas!
Bombadil is a enigma so he probably came to life with the valar and other maia. The ents came later on made by Yavanna called tree shepards i'd think that bombadil would be older.

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
Gothmog and Thorin beat me to the punch. Tom is not a living thing. He is something else. I personally believe him to be one of the Ainur from the Void that did not go to Aman but....

Treebeard is at the time of the War of the Ring, the oldest living creature on Middle-earth.

Yes, but there is no proof that Bombadil was 'not' a living creature Grond, because Tolkien never wrote that fact down anyway. So we cannot 'presume' he was NOT living as he was a talking, walking, living, breathing creature. That is a good definition of what a living thing is.

Originally posted by Bucky
I think the 'loophole' to avoid contradiction is in Treebeard being called the Oldest Living creature.

Bucky, I disagree. I believe that Tolkien may have actually made an honest mistake in his writings as he is only human, and humans are not infallible, we all know that.

'Eh, what?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

Yes, thankyou Gothmog, I was aware of the passage, but it is irrelevenat to the argument. OK, so the subject of the thread is 'Who is the oldest?', but I am wondering if Tolkien accidentally contradicted himself.

Originally posted by Viceras Daydark
Gimli often stated "facts" that were indeed falsehoods. As it is a character talking, and not Tolkien himself, I don't think its a contradiction.

Could you please enlighten me as to where this is stated Viceras? If so, than IMO Tolkien used that as an excuse to get out of any contradictions he made.

Originally posted by Bucky
Bucky thinks that people who refer to themselves in the first person need a serving of humble pie.

Hi Bucky, nice to see you on the thread too.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ulari
Yes, but there is no proof that Bombadil was 'not' a living creature Grond, because Tolkien never wrote that fact down anyway. So we cannot 'presume' he was NOT living as he was a talking, walking, living, breathing creature. That is a good definition of what a living thing is.

Well then Ulari, you have dug yourself a hole. Are you going to jump in? You have also painted yourself into a corner as well. There is also no "proof" that Sauron isn't also a living creature. Wait a minute!! What about Saruman?? Wait, hold on!! Gandalf too. We are besieged with living creatures that are indeed older than Treebeard for all of those I've named both walk on Middle-earth at the time of the Lord of the Rings and are older than Treebeard. Hold on!! We forgot about the Eagles who are also Maia and would be living creatures that were older than Treebeard.

Ulari, you are either faced with acknowledging that JRRT WAS NOT counting peoples he considered of the "spriritual order" in his equation or that he made a monumental blunder of epic proportions. I don't think it was the latter. But, of course, I'm sure that in your genuis, you have already figured out the correct answer.

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Ulairi


Yes, thankyou Gothmog, I was aware of the passage, but it is irrelevenat to the argument. OK, so the subject of the thread is 'Who is the oldest?', but I am wondering if Tolkien accidentally contradicted himself.

In what way do concider the passage I quoted to be irrelevant? In doing so you are chosing to discount my reasoning without bothering to answer it. The passage clearly shows that Gandalf did not count the Istari who are Maiar as Theoden was talking to one. Also Gandalf did not mention Saruman in this context. So until you answer the points made and refute them the post is Most Relevant!

 

[Gil-Galad]

I don't think the oldest creature is Tom.It seems to me that he would be a Vala or a Maia who has decided not to go back in Valinor,but to stay in Me,after The War of Wrath and Morgoth's death.Although the dwarves were created first by Aule,they weren't alive till elves' coming.So I would say that Treebeard is the oldest of all.

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
Well then Ulari, you have dug yourself a hole. Are you going to jump in? You have also painted yourself into a corner as well. There is also no "proof" that Sauron isn't also a living creature. Wait a minute!! What about Saruman?? Wait, hold on!! Gandalf too. We are besieged with living creatures that are indeed older than Treebeard for all of those I've named both walk on Middle-earth at the time of the Lord of the Rings and are older than Treebeard. Hold on!! We forgot about the Eagles who are also Maia and would be living creatures that were older than Treebeard.

Ulari, you are either faced with acknowledging that JRRT WAS NOT counting peoples he considered of the "spriritual order" in his equation or that he made a monumental blunder of epic proportions. I don't think it was the latter. But, of course, I'm sure that in your genuis, you have already figured out the correct answer.

Perhaps I have Grond. Even if Sauron could be counted as a living creature, they are all from Valinor. Tolkien made the statement that Fangorn was the oldest living creature under the sun of Middle-earth and that Bombadil was the oldest and the first. We do not know where Bombadil is from, and we will never know. But Bombadil cannot be a Maia, a Vala or Iluvatar. If you want me to show you why then I will. I posted it somewhere else. So what is Bombadil and where is he from? We will never know. Tolkien may or may not have contradicted himself as we do not know where Bombadil is from. It looks like I have filled the hole back in and I have got myself out of the corner Grond.