Who is the oldest 🧝Elf listed?

[Bucky]

Proof Galadriel was born in Valinor:

The Silmarillion, 'Of Feanor':

"So the 3 kindreds were gathered in Valinor & Melkor was chained....."
"In that time was born in Eldamar, in the house of the King.....the eldest of the sons of Finwe....Curufinwe was his name, but by his mother he was called Feanor..."

So, if Galadriels father, Finarfin wasn't born yet, she obviously wasn't either.
So, she was born in Valinor as she was 'eager to depart' upon hearing Feanor's words after the theft of the Silmarils & death of his father.

On Glorfindel (or Glorfindels), he (or they) could've been there on the journey to Valinor.
There's no proff either way, though & I personally would tend to doubt it.
Why?
Because note is made of 'The most noble' of the Elves who heeded the Valar's call.
If Tolkien goes out of his way to bring in & mention Glorfindel at later points for his power & nobility, why wouldn't he mention it earlier?

And, on Cirdan:
He was the Lord of the Teleri who did not depart ME & stayed at the Falas.
These Elves were 'original' or eldest (in terms of 'Awakening) as they were partakers of the great journey.
Would they chose or be led by a child of someone else?
Note that all the other Kindreds were led by those who were eldest (Olwe, Elwe, Finwe, Ingwe).

I don't know if this is clearly stated, but I believe it was Cirdan's 'fate' to dwell in ME longest of all the Eldar.
Remember 'He awaits the last ship' & 'Some say he still dwells there' (the Grey Havens) even after the Departure of Elrond & Galadriel.....

 

[Thorin]

I don't fully understand the debate about Galadriel NOT being born in Valinor...

Finwe, Ingwe and Elwe went to Valinor to check it out by invitation of Orome....They came back and convinced the other elves to go...Elwe got lost and became Thingol. The rest of the elves went over....After the rebellion of Feanor, they were banished to ME....They did not come back at any time before the rebellion...All of Finwe's kin (kids and grandkids) were part of that and made the great trek back over to ME...

What' s the problem, Harad? I think Sil and UT make that chronology quite plain.

 

[Harad]

As usual you dont understand the issue. Since Galadriels father was born in Valinor, then Galadriel was born in Valinor, and that makes her definitely younger than Cirdan. Unless there is proof that Glorfindel was born in Valinor, instead of his accompanying Finwe there, then he might be as old/older than Cirdan.

 

[Bill the Pony]

From HoME 6 ch. XII At Rivendell. Tolkien doodled on a piece of paper:

Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin

Not entirely sure of the word ancestry, but I believe it implies he has parents, i.e. Glorfindel is younger than Cirdan.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Harad
As usual you dont understand the issue. Since Galadriels father was born in Valinor, then Galadriel was born in Valinor, and that makes her definitely younger than Cirdan.

It's hard to understand the issue when you continually contradict yourself and don't seem to know what you believe or understand.

quote from Harad:

However I can not find any evidence that Glorfindel or Galadriel, both Noldur, were not also alive at the time of Cirdan, sailed to Valinor, then returned. In the absence of evidence that Galadriel or Glorfindel were born in Valinor, how can one conclude that Cirdan is older?

I never said anything about Glorfindel being for sure older then Cirdan, I just think that it was unlikely.

quote from Thorin in reference to Harad's comment about Galadriel:
"I don't fully understand the debate about Galadriel NOT being born in Valinor... "

So, Harad, take your sanctimonious attitude and stuff it if you can't even explain yourself straight...Take a bit of responsibility for once.

 

[Thorin]

Information taken from Morgoth's Ring; HoME VOL X

YT = Year of the trees

1115 YT: March of the Eldar

1128 YT: "Now the host of the Teleri came at last to Beleriand and dwelt in the eastward region beyond the River Gelion.

1132 YT: Teleri settle along the shores of Beleriand. It mentions that Olwe was their king, which doesn't mean that Cirdan wasn't a lord because in 1162, it mentions that Olwe was still the king.

1149 YT: Specific mention of Cirdan the Shipwright as lord of the Teleri along the shores "those were the Eldar that long abode on the coasts of Beleriand, the first mariners upon earth and the first makers of ships. Their havens were at Brithombar and Eglarest. Cirdan the Shipwright was their lord."

My guess is that it is quite feasible that Cirdan was leading when the Teleri dwelt by the shores in 1132. It was probably feasible that he underwent the great march as well.

1362 YT: Galadriel born

That puts Cirdan at least 2130 years older then Galadriel and possibly 2470 years older.

I haven't checked any of the other HoME series, but Glorfindel's only real mention is his dwelling in Gondolin. I can't see him being older then Turgon, who was born in Valinor....I think that it is pretty safe to say that Cirdan was much older then Glorfindel.

 

[Harad]

I would agree that the indications are that Glorfindel was younger, e.g. than Feanor...meaning that he is younger than Cirdan. Still, its probably not mentioned in print, as I have looked without success so far...

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Bucky
And, on Cirdan:
He was the Lord of the Teleri who did not depart ME & stayed at the Falas.
These Elves were 'original' or eldest (in terms of 'Awakening) as they were partakers of the great journey.
Would they chose or be led by a child of someone else?
Note that all the other Kindreds were led by those who were eldest (Olwe, Elwe, Finwe, Ingwe).

What makes you think that Cirdan and Olwe, Elwe, Finwe, Ingwe were 'eldest' in terms of the 'Awakening'? (I presume you mean that they Awoke at Cuivienen and thus were among the Unbegotten.)

 

[Bucky]

I simply meant eldest in terms of 'from the beginning', not the VERY first to awake (although that is indeed a possibility), pre-birth or 'unbegotten' as you say.

I'd have to read the story in The Silm to see what's to be gleaned from it.

But, Elwe, aka Thingol, does tell the Dwarves he fights with over the Nauglmir that his "life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke"

So, I think it's a safe bet that he's from the first 'batch', although that doesn't explain how he had a 'brother', Olwe.....

 

[Brent]

Originally posted by Bucky
I simply meant eldest in terms of 'from the beginning', not the VERY first to awake (although that is indeed a possibility), pre-birth or 'unbegotten' as you say.

I'd have to read the story in The Silm to see what's to be gleaned from it.

But, Elwe, aka Thingol, does tell the Dwarves he fights with over the Nauglmir that his "life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke"

So, I think it's a safe bet that he's from the first 'batch', although that doesn't explain how he had a 'brother', Olwe.....

Though I assume the Elves lived @ Cuivienen for a considerable period of time, indeed they must have done for there were only 144 to start with. Also I understand there is talk that Indis is the sister of Ingwe somewhere in HoME

 

[Bucky]

Yeah, after Thorin posted that about 144 'original' Elves, I wondered if Elwe & Olwe (or Cirdan) could've been from the first (or later) 'broods'.

Still, The Noldor (at least) seem to have a rather well established 'rule of sucession (sp?) to the Kingship' based on seniority......

They either changed it or got it from previous Kingships among the Elves.

BTW, yes, I know Maedhros renounced the Kingship......

 

[Bucky]

Oops-

I forgot this thought:

Maybe there were 2 or 3, even 4 generations when Orome arrived.

Maybe those chosen to go were the only ones WILLING to go, although it says in the Silm that they were 'chosen'....

As they came back changed mightily, they naturally became the Kings......

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Bucky
I simply meant eldest in terms of 'from the beginning', not the VERY first to awake (although that is indeed a possibility), pre-birth or 'unbegotten' as you say.

I'd have to read the story in The Silm to see what's to be gleaned from it.

But, Elwe, aka Thingol, does tell the Dwarves he fights with over the Nauglmir that his "life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke"

So, I think it's a safe bet that he's from the first 'batch', although that doesn't explain how he had a 'brother', Olwe.....

The explanation to Elwe having a brother (or rather two brothers (Olwe and Elmo) is that he did not 'Awake' at Cuivienen, but rather had parents. According to the 'Awakening of the Quendi' in WotJ, there were 144 Elves who Awoke at Cuivienen. There were 72 men and 72 women and "Eru had so ordained that each should lie beside his or her 'destined spouse'". We know that Elwe's spouse was Melian of the Maia, who did not Awake at Cuivienen, and thus Elwe could not have Awoke at Cuivienen with his 'destined spouse'. He met her much later in Beleriand. This means Elwe was not one of the 'Unbegotten'. Since he was not one of the original Elves to Awake, and he had two brothers, he (or rather they) had parents. We also know that Finwe did not Awake beside his spouse. Finwe wed Miriel, who as we learn in the Shibboleth of Feanor (PoME) was named Serinde by her mother, and it strongly implies that Miriel was born in Aman. As Miriel had parents, she was not one of the Unbegotten, and thus neither was Finwe because he did not 'Awake' beside her. Thus Finwe had parents. Ingwe had a sister, Indis in one version, and Indis' mother in the next. As Ingwe had a sibling, he had parents as well. Cirdan is said to be kin (unspecified) to Elwe, unless he was Elwe's (fore)father then it is unlikely that he Awoke at Cuivienen but rather he too was born there and probably a cousin of some sort (implying that Elwe was at least third generation).

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Bucky Yeah, after Thorin posted that about 144 'original' Elves, I wondered if Elwe & Olwe (or Cirdan) could've been from the first (or later) 'broods'.

Still, The Noldor (at least) seem to have a rather well established 'rule of sucession (sp?) to the Kingship' based on seniority......

They either changed it or got it from previous Kingships among the Elves.

BTW, yes, I know Maedhros renounced the Kingship......

Actually the Noldor do not seem to have had very well established 'rule of succession' (at least not initially, and what need? The King was 'immortal' and did not expect to die). After Finwe's death there was a lot of trouble over who was going to succeed him, with both Feanor and Fingolfin claiming the Kingship. After Feanor's death Maedhros waived his claim in favour of Fingolfin's (though not all of Maedhros brothers agreed with that decision). Before Finwe, Ingwe and Elwe became kings, there do not seem to have been any kings among the Quendi (though 'chieftains' are referred to).

 

[Bucky]

WotJ?

Please specify.
I need to do some more book buying on HoME. Is it part of that?

So, that all makes sense in terms of 'the awakening'.
No doubt that those with the guts to go with Orome & check out Valinor first were already the leaders. Then, they come back with a 1000 watt lightbulb in each eye......


BTW:
I don't recall that Fingolfin fought at all with Feanor over who would be King after Finwe died.

I think they fought over whether to go back to ME.

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Bucky
WotJ?

Please specify.
I need to do some more book buying on HoME. Is it part of that?

So, that all makes sense in terms of 'the awakening'.
No doubt that those with the guts to go with Orome & check out Valinor first were already the leaders. Then, they come back with a 1000 watt lightbulb in each eye......


BTW:
I don't recall that Fingolfin fought at all with Feanor over who would be King after Finwe died.

I think they fought over whether to go back to ME.

He didn't fight him he just staked a claim.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Bucky
WotJ?
Please specify.
I need to do some more book buying on HoME. Is it part of that?

WotJ= War of the Jewels, HoME 11.

BTW:
I don't recall that Fingolfin fought at all with Feanor over who would be King after Finwe died.

I think they fought over whether to go back to ME.

In Tirion there was debate on whether or not to return to ME. Feanor claimed the kingship there, but when he attempted to marshal the Noldor, they would not renounce Fingolfin, who had been ruling them while Finwe was in (self) exile with Feanor (Finwe held himself 'unkinged'). Fingolfin claimed the kingship as well (see especially 'The Shibboleth of Feanor' in 'Peoples of Middle-earth', HoME 12).