Who is the strongest and mighty 🧝elf? (as success)

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

UPDATE:

I use the birthday present

You certainly did!

 

[earthfriend]

I know this is regarding Elves, but as there was a fascinating digression re. Galadriel's place in the pantheon of mighty beings of Middle Earth and her (having the only ability to withstand Sauron), where would Bombadil stand in this line up (and yes I know he's not an elf, but still......)

 

[Inkling]

So I am actually convinced that Tom Bombadil is more powerful than all but Eru. Ungoliant could probably give him a run for his money, because in a way she is his opposite. I attached the link to a very in depth theory as to what Tom actually is which will explain it a lot better than I can: http://whoistombombadil.blogspot.com/2013/01/tom-bombadil-as-music-of-ainur_9.html Knowing what exactly Bombadil is, is crucial to understanding his power.
Of course, the theory could also be wrong, but I think its the best I have heard to date.


However, if we are talking about the warrior capabilities than there could be an argument that he is not as powerful, because he seems very peaceful, so there could be something said about that.

 

[earthfriend]

Very interesting point, esp. the link to Bombadil's use of and link with music. However, as to him being less powerful than only Eru, I made a point in a different thread. At the Council of Elrond, it's discussed giving the Ring to Bombadil, but Gandalf states Bombadil had no power over the Ring, rather the Ring had no power over Bombadil. Had he been given the Ring, Sauron would have put forth his power, subsumed the rest of Middle Earth (it was not suggested that Galadriel could have withstood him) Bombadil would have been ''last as he was first. Could Bombadil have withstood the coming of Sauron? I think not''.
Sauron was a Maia, but he was assessed by Gandalf as being more powerful than Bombadil, certainly than Galadriel. His physical power is not addressed, i.e. his ability to swing a sword, his mind was on other things and not concerned with affairs outside his immediate environs

 

[earthfriend]

Couple of points to bear in mind. I don't think Sauron was actually driven from Dol Goldur by the White Council, (although at the time of writing he was the Necromancer, not Sauron the servant of Morgoth and maker of the One Ring that would enslave all Middle Earth. Rather, he feigned retreat and withdrew to Barad Dur which he had been preparing for such an event. Also, when Frodo entered Mount Doom, the phial of Galadriel flickered and failed. It's power was not enough to shine in the very heartland of Sauron's power

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

The OP didn't include one of the best warriors just because she was a woman. Hmm. Intresting.

In Laws and Customs of the Eldar it is clearly stated all female Elves could fight valiantly. See the essay in Morgoth's Ring to find more. I quote a bit of it here: "indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi (elf women) fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strenght and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals." The reason why they didn't fight more often is due to valuing their healing powers. Elves healing power gets lessened if they kill anyone, this is true for both male Elves and female Elves.

Anyway, to Galadriel, the most badass girl.

"These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,(14) were unfriends for ever." "Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves." - Shibboleth of Feanor

«Her mother-name was Nerwen (‘man-maiden’), and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor [193cm]; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.» - Shibboleth of Feanor

«Nor were the 'loremasters' a seperate guild of gentle scribes, soon burned by the Orks of Angband upon pyres of books. They were mostly even as Fëanor, the greatest, kings, princes and warriors, such as the valiant captains of Gondolin, or Finrod of Nargothrond and Rodothir his kinsman and steward.» - [Shibboleth of Fëanor; Note 23]

"Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among contending Princes" - Silmarillion

Tolkien describes high skilled official professional female warriors as 'Amazon':

“[Éowyn] was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.” - The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter #244

In an early draft Eowyn was "a stern Amazon" who "goes as Amazon" to war. Clearly means she rode to war openly and as a real professional warrior. This idea about Eowyn was abandoned, as you can see.

"One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women." - The Unfinished Tales

"[Galadriel] was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats” - Tolkien Letter 348

Galadriel is a brave 'Amazon'.

“A sister they had, Galadriel, the fairest lady of the house of Finwe, and the most valiant.” - Morgoth's Ring

So I think these are enough to understand how much of a capable warrior she was.

Now which battles she fought in?

First Kinslaying: "Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she [Galadriel] fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back." - People of Middle-earth, the Shibboleth of Feanor

The Battle of the Lammoth. As a leader in the Flight of the Noldor and crossing the Helcaraxë, she must've still been a leader in this suprise attack which befell them after crossing the Helcaraxë. (In such crisis and desperate defence even the most devoted Elf healers fought)

The Second and Third Kinslayings: if Galadriel was in Doriath and Sirion, then she must've participated in these battles. Christopher Tolkien argues and speculates that she naturally must've been there (a very valid guess if we are going by Sindarin Celeborn versions).

The Fall of Eregion: "after Eregion's fall Celeborn led this migration [of the survivors of Eregion] to Lórien, while Galadriel joined Gil-galad in Lindon; but elsewhere, in a writing contemporary with this, it is said explicitly that they both at that time "passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lórien." " - Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn

The assault of Sauron on Lindon: if you are going by the version where she escaped to Lindon, then yes. They were barely holding the Grey Havens, they were desperately fighting in its defence. Not only Galadriel who was full Amazon and strongest woman and etc, but also many other women were needed in such dire straits and desperate defences.

The Battle of the Gwathlo and the Rescue of Rivendell: Galadriel might have stayed back in Lindon. But it's hard to imagine that Galadriel went through the worst and deadliest parts of the war, but then didn't participate in the victory part, in the most satisfying part, in the easiest part.

I should mention, the gal who wanted to kill Feanor: “now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could.” - SoF

The Last Alliance: unknown.

Here we enter Third Age when I highly doubt if Galadriel ever killed anyone anymore. I believe she had fully devoted herself in everything that is things-not-killing. But it's evident that she still fought, preferably with magic now. Also, to support these, we have a statement from Unfinished Tales that says in Third Age she was "unable of punitive action" but amazing in resistance. And also, the fact that Tolkien says Galadriel was Amazon BACK THEN, as in to imply she wasn't Amazon/warrior anymore.

The Second Siege of Imladris: possible. IF she had already finished her journeys of inquiry.

The rescue of Lorien (not really a great battle or something, but it was still a rescue).

The clashing against Sauron in the Ride of Eorl: in short, Sauron sent shadows of terror against the Riders of the North, but Galadriel drove back Sauron's sorcery with her mist. (Sauron was in a weakened form at that time, but still he was very powerful)

The Attack of the White Council On Dol Guldur where they drove back Sauron (yes the retreat was already planned, but he would've LOVED to crush his chief enemies, it's just he couldn't face so many of his powerful enemies, so he stuck with the plan)

The Three Assaults of Dol Guldur on Lorien: "Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself."

The Fall of Dol Guldur: "when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed." (LOTR Appendix B)

Fingolfin was perhaps the best fighter, but Galadriel was far more efficient than him. Glorfindel is a good efficient one too. But Galadriel played more "universal" and crucial roles.

 

[Melkor]

According to his deeds and achievements, who do you think is the most powerful and mighty elf in middle earth?

Most powerful warrior is definitely Fingolfin. But most powerful considering any deed? Lúthien. She put asleep whole Angband, Melkor included. This require more power than just wounded him in fight (which is still very impressive, considering that Melkor is Vala and Fingolfin "just" an elf, Fingolfin must be really skilled warrior).

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

...Lúthien...

She cheated with sneak attack, though maybe this proved that she got much higher tactical flexibility and skills as sneaking so well.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Anyone who has read Morgoth's Ring knows Celebrimbor fight against Sauron was harder than Fingolfin fight against Morgoth.

Fingolfin fought a lame weak Morgoth. SA Sauron was greater than late FA Morgoth. Fingolfin himself wouldn't have had that much chance to seriously injure Sauron if he was there in the Fall of Eregion.

But yeah, Celebrimbor didn't do much against Sauron. And nonetheless Fingolfin achieved greater. Just pointing out, don't exaggerate Fingolfin that much. I'd argue Feanor fight against Balrogs was more badass. Especially if there was more than 3 Balrogs.

 

[Melkor]

She cheated with sneak attack, though maybe this proved that she got much higher tactical flexibility and skills as sneaking so well.

I admire her attitude to the problem. I don't think it is cheating. It's clever way how to defeat enemy without being injured. I always like more when someone defeat enemy in clever way than in brute force.

 

[Olorgando]

Anyone who has read Morgoth's Ring knows Celebrimbor fight against Sauron was harder than Fingolfin fight against Morgoth.

While Sauron's forces attacked Eregion, does it say anywhere that Sauron and Celebrimbor went face to face in a direct confrontation, like Sauron apparently had to against Gil-galad and Elendil? Sauron's war in the Second Age was strictly with the Elves, until Númenor intervened. For whatever reason - probably there being rather few Elves left in the Second Age west of the Misty Mountains was a major factor - he doesn't seem to have had much trouble with Eregion; Elrond, sent by Gil-galad to assist, had to retreat to what then became Imladris. The Grey Havens did hold out, but Sauron was defeated by the Númenórean intervention. I would rather guess that Sauron didn't need to intervene personally to capture Celebrimbor, his forces were sufficient for that.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Sauron really hated Celebrimbor for being "ungreatful". In NoME he even personally tormented and killed him, not his Orcs.

From Unfinished Tales: "At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. **Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron** on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked."

Eregion contained a lot of Noldor.
"When they entered that region there were many Noldor in their following" - UT
And more came after hearing about Mithril in 700-750 SA.

In the fall of Eregion, many Noldor died, many retreated to Rivendell, and some to Lindon, and still... There were great amount of them left in the host of Galadriel and Celeborn. Again many from the host of G&C died ere they could join up with the allies on the other side of the battlefield, and yet again many other died ere they were overwhelmed and retreated to Moria... And still there were large amount of Noldor in the following of G&C.

From NoME:
"and they were well-disposed to Lórien, where many of the survivors of Eregion had taken refuge."
"Oropher had withdrawn northward beyond the confluence of the Gladden and Anduin: to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, and still more, after the fall of Eregion, from the “domination” of Celeborn and Galadriel. They had passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin Exiles"

 

[Melkor]

Anyone who has read Morgoth's Ring knows Celebrimbor fight against Sauron was harder than Fingolfin fight against Morgoth.

Fingolfin fought a lame weak Morgoth. SA Sauron was greater than late FA Morgoth. Fingolfin himself wouldn't have had that much chance to seriously injure Sauron if he was there in the Fall of Eregion.

But yeah, Celebrimbor didn't do much against Sauron. And nonetheless Fingolfin achieved greater. Just pointing out, don't exaggerate Fingolfin that much. I'd argue Feanor fight against Balrogs was more badass. Especially if there was more than 3 Balrogs.

Are you so sure, that Sauron was more powerful than Morgoth at the end of the first age? I don't think so. Melkor disperse lots of his power in to his army, but he was at the start the mightiest of the Valar. So he still have at that time tremendous amount of power.

Sauron with the ring was eventually "killed" by Gil-Galad and Elendil. I don't think that they could achieve this in the fight with Melkor.

Sure, Fëanor's fight with Balrogs is impresive. But still I think that Fingolfin stood against greater power than that.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Are you so sure, that Sauron was more powerful than Morgoth at the end of the first age

"Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First..." - Morgoth's Ring

Sauron with the ring was eventually "killed" by Gil-Galad and Elendil.

Sauron was just killed recently by God. He still hadn't recovered enough. You think few years was enough for him get recovered enough? And nonetheless, even with thousands of years he could regain his former power for so much, but not wholly.

Moreover, Sauron wasn't "killed" by Elendil and Erenion. He was "killed" by himself with the action made by Isildur.

"...Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. *Then* Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places" Of the Rings of Power

“It ends with the overthrow of Sauron and destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil. But at a cost, and with one disastrous mistake. Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts die ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows.'
Letter 131 - Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

Sure, Fëanor's fight with Balrogs is impresive. But still I think that Fingolfin stood against greater power than that.

SA Sauron (from forging of the Ring until death in Akallabeth) > Late FA Morgoth

A Balrog = second only to Sauron among the servants of Morgoth

Many Balrogs > Sauron

Easy math.

And let's not forget that Dior and Nimloth killed three Elves who had fought Balrogs and Boldogs and all hellish creatures and Thranduil and Oropher and Amdir and Celeborn and Galadriel who survived against the mad brutal assaults and slaughers of the Feanorians.

Also, let's not forget Finarfin who fought in the greatest war of the history as the leader of the Noldor.

And unlike Fingolfin and Feanor, they were actually fruitful and successful.

 

[Melkor]

"Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First..." - Morgoth's Ring

Yes, he was greater effectively, because he had well organized armies and used good strategy. But he certainly wasn't greater in power. Late first age Melkor would win combat 1 vs 1 with Sauron with ring. Power and efficiency isn't the same.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Even if that's so, even if we accept your interpretation, Sauron was waaay more valiant than Morgoth of YotS.

You are not taking into account how afraid Morgoth was and how this most certainly effected him terribly. Sauron was not afaird at all, not until his death in the Downfall. This was an advantage point, a great one, especially when we are talking Tolkien who loved to emphasize on the power of courage.

Sauron defied the lightning of Manwë himself and was unharmed. Can you imagine the same thing for Morgoth of late FA? Morgoth would've been injured in such a situation. This doesn't have to do with overall power, this is rather have to do with absolute courage to stand up so full confident and resist the lightning. Also, Morgoth was full incarnate and he had terrible "allergy" and weakness when confronted by light, any sort of light, especially the holy ones like Manwë's or Varda's.

"Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar."

I might be reading into this too much, but seems like Tolkien here is talking about Melkor, not Morgoth. Melkor became known as Morgoth in YotS. So if Tolkien is referencing Melkor from Years of the Trees, then indeed in Years of the Sun he was so reduced that he became as weak as a top tier Maia like SA Sauron or even lesser.

But to be realistic, in a battle anything can go wrong. Even in a caged match. Sauron is more powerful than Gothmog, but if we are being realistic, its possible if Gothmog can take him down. Such things happen, at least in real life.

 

[Melkor]

I might be reading into this too much, but seems like Tolkien here is talking about Melkor, not Morgoth. Melkor became known as Morgoth in YotS. So if Tolkien is referencing Melkor from Years of the Trees, then indeed in Years of the Sun he was so reduced that he became as weak as a top tier Maia like SA Sauron or even lesser.

I think you underestimate first age Melkor. Sauron (which is in your opinion more powerful) was actually afraid of him. When Huan beated him, he didn't return to the Angband. He rather hid himself in Tar-Nu-Fuin, because he was afraid of his master's anger.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

We are talking about comparison to SA Sauron, not FA Sauron.

And this is kinda irrelevant nonetheless. Sauron had no one on his side after his defeat against Huan, but Morgoth... You know

Even if we consider YOTS Morgoth as more powerful than SA Sauron, I think it's pretty obvious that at least after creating the host of Dragons, Morgoth was now definitely less powerful than SA Sauron. It was just too much.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Yes, he was greater effectively, because he had well organized armies and used good strategy.

If that's so, I wonder why Tolkien feels the need to explain Morgoth as an individual personally was less powerful: "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth..."

To answer the why question, Tolkien doesn't explain it with 'he had better organized and strategic armies'. He explains it by saying Sauron hadn't wasted his power while Morgoth had.