Who was the mightiest 🧝elf: Fingolfin or Hurin?

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Feanor
>Feanor on the other hand, now he was a loser,

At least I never slept with my sister.



At least I didn't sleep with my sister.

A little repetative I think.

Turin's deeds are also remembered for all time.

 

[Feanor]

>Those who are less in wisdom should heed the words of the wise.

Hmmm, and the Vala I assume your reasoning were 'the wise'? With all their powers of foresight and wisdom did they not foresee the demise of the light of the 2 trees? This proves they were NOT all wise. They hadn't even set guard there! Blind idiocy!
Not only did they not go after Morgoth at once, they didn't even go when the second born, the Atani, came into being! If not for my sake at least for theirs!



>Did the Teleri, in their innocence, also "betray" you? Did the followers of Fingolfin "betray" you? Is that why you burned the ships and left them to suffer the terrible passage of the Helcaraxe?


Had the Vala assisted me in the beginning none of this would have come to pass. Much needless suffering could have been averted, or had they not had the wisdom to foresee this too?




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And if the Vala weren't foolish enough to let Morgoth out in the first place none of this would have happened.
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Those who do not understand mercy often debase the merciful.


There's a difference between mercy and stupidity.


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I would have come back and gotten [Fingolfin, etc.]... right after I obtained the silmarils.
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>Horse-poo. Your direct words to Maedhros were to the effect of "Let them crawl back to the Valar on their bellies if they will" or something of that sort.

The survivors of that trek turned out to be hardier and more resolute after their ordeal. You could say I did them a favour. And if the Vala were indeed so merciful as you speak, then suely it was in their power to save them.


Even when they did FINALLY go after Morgoth at the end of the age they did so not at some predetermined or strategically planned point of time, but only when an emissary (Earendil) came and BEGGED them to help. Tell me, what part did wisdom play in the timing of their assault? NONE! It was pride. They wanted an apology.
They are the appointed guardians of the world. It is their DUTY to rid the world of evil. Not to wait for some emissary to beg them to go! If not for my silmaril, Earendil wouldn't have even made it to Aman, and they might never have attacked!
Fools! The lot of them!

You speak of mercy. Where was their mercy for the Sindarin? for the Atani? for the green elves? for the dwarves?

 

[Feanor]

A little repetative I think.




>repetative..
Is that the Brit spelling? Repetitive you mean? Repetition is a device used by authors who either lack the intelligence to come up with something else OR use it as a device to emphasize a very important point.
For ex: "in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie"

Did Tolkein need this last line? He said it twice, gee, couldn't he think of something else?

Turin's incestuous act was by far his WORST deed. It was the one which ultimately led to his death.


>Turin's deeds are also remembered for all time.

Aye, I'll drink to that!

 

[Mormegil]

I do truly apologise for the spelling mistake!!
No need to mock me, or to insinuate things about 'Brit spelling'.

 

[Feanor]

Hahaha, you are mighty w your sword, but as the old saying goes

the pen is mightier than the sword.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Feanor
>I just have a problem with Feanor being considered the greatest or the mightiest of anything.
I WAS the greatest in skill.

>He betrayed the Valar by going to war on Melkor.
BETRAYED?! They betrayed me and all the free peoples of ME by NOT going to war agst Morgoth, black enemy of the world. It was their fault he was loose and therefore their responsibility. If they were too gutless to go after him the LEAST they could have done was to assist me. Heartless cowards!
And if the Vala weren't foolish enough to let Morgoth out in the first place none of this would have happened.

>When the Elves of Aqualonde wouldn't give him passage, he killed his own people.
Cowardly fools who would betray their own kin! They were brainwashed by some devilry of the Vala. They deserved to die!

>He then forsook Fingolfin and Galadriel and their people to the doom of Helcaraxe and the Ice Hills, where many of his own people perished.
I would have come back and gotten them... right after I obtained the silmarils.

>Pride, arrogance and conceit were the essence of Feanor and though his soul was the most intense of the Eldar so was his ego.
Feanor for Elves and Turin for Man. The two greatest losers of Middle-earth.
Mighty words. Mighty words indeed. And from what? A 'tool of the underworld'? Methinks that when your master placed MY gems upon his crown that he forgot about you and left you in some dark, dusty corner. Indeed your body would have broken itself upon the silmarils had it tried to break them. You cannot bear that thought. It eats away at you.
Is this not the reason for your contempt of me?
Begone back to the dark dungeons from whence you came pit- digger! Were you in my hands I would melt you down in my hot furnaces and recast your body into shackles, which I would then bind unto the hands of thy master thus ensuring you were never again parted from his grip! Hahahahaha!

Feanor, this is without a doubt the best reply I have ever had to one of my attacks on Feanor. I am truly humbled by your greatness and your righteous indignation at me. Those damn Vala. If they had just left us alone in the first place, Melkor would never have been chained the first time and we could have been happy in Utumno. I'm with you..... screw em.

 

[Grond]

And, lastly, I want to give the last two pages of this thread the "Entertaining Thread of the Year Award". I haven't laughed so much since signing on here in October. Good job. I love you guys!!!!!!

 

[Feanor]

>Feanor, this is without a doubt the best reply I have ever had to one of my attacks on Feanor. I am truly humbled by your greatness and your righteous indignation at me. Those damn Vala. If they had just left us alone in the first place, Melkor would never have been chained the first time and we could have been happy in Utumno. I'm with you..... screw em.


Thank you Grond. May I say that I have learned much myself from you and NEVER skip over any of your posts. But let me level w you, I'm not actually Feanor. I'm just some guy who has been v moved by Sil and LoTR. And I'm not even a v prolific reader of novels.
But I do believe that to ensure a great debate someone must play Devil's Advocate. And I know I know Feanor did have some major flaws but I do feel a certain affinity w him on some level (I'm going to start another thread [gee,think its about time?!] on why all you guys picked who you did, who/what that person is,etc. Who's Tyaronumen anyway?).

But let me say this, I truly believe that if the real Feanor truly existed (and if he could hypothetically go online to this site) that his response to a verbal attack on him would've been 100X greater in power, persuasion, emotion, and beauty than I could ever hope to achieve.

Think about it, all those Noldorim, LEAVING Aman! Imagine the strength of his words that would make them follow him and cause doubt in even the wisest of beings. I guess that's why I can't stand idly by while someone totally writes off Feanor.

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Its adds a certain colour to the forum to post replies from the viewpoint of your 'forum name' doesn't it?

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Feanor
Its adds a certain colour to the forum to post replies from the viewpoint of your 'forum name' doesn't it?

I am so bummed that you are not really Feanor. I thought I had found someone who might finally wield me in battle. Who could have stood against Feanor, the mightiest, wisest, bravest, strongest of his people is he were to wielded the Great Hammer Grond? Oh...my...God!!! We would have swept the field away! Oops, I forget....Feanor, the greatest in coordinated skill of his people. Okay, let's see, where was I? Oh yes, ...wielded with the Great Hammer Grond. Fingolfin would have perished with a single blow (your aim being so good and all), Gorthaur/Sauron would have been history and we would have crushed Melkor's head with a mighty blow. You would have the taken his crown and recovered your Simarils.

Oh, I forgot....you're right, Feanor....it sure is fun and does add colour to the forum to post replies from the viewpoint of your forum handle.

 

[Lord Melkor]

Yes I am the greatest being on Arda, but at the time Of Beleriand Wars I gave a bulk of my power to the servants of mine.
The problem is you don`t understand the word "power", because it is the spiritual might that counts the most! I propably wouldn`t defeat Ancalogon The Black or Glaurung in straight melee combat.

Don`t you regret not joining forces with me Feanor? We could rule Arda together if it wasn`t for your pride, that day I visited you in Formenos!

And Feanor faced a whole bunch of Balrogs, who defeated Ungoliant, remember, I was powerless against her!

 

[Lord Melkor]

so bummed that you are not really Feanor. I thought I had found someone who might finally wield me in battle. Who could have stood against Feanor, the mightiest, wisest, bravest, strongest of his people is he were to wielded the Great Hammer Grond? Oh...my...God!!! We would have swept the field away! Oops, I forget....Feanor, the greatest in coordinated skill of his people. Okay, let's see, where was I? Oh yes, ...wielded with the Great Hammer Grond. Fingolfin would have perished with a single blow (your aim being so good and all), Gorthaur/Sauron would have been history and we would have crushed Melkor's head with a mighty blow. You would have the taken his crown and recovered your Simarils.

Traitor!

I have created you you unfaithful hammer!

 

[baraka]

Re: Re: Feanor

Originally posted by Tyaronumen


I can hardly understand your admiration for the hubris and assinine behavior of Feanor.

Feanor couldn't even handle fighting Gothmog -- a Balrog (slain by Ecthelion of the Fountain, who was obviously more suited to fighting Balrog's than Feanor), while Fingolfin fought and permanently wounded THE MOST POWERFUL BEING OTHER THAN ILUVATAR.

Your admiration for Feanor (who is best described using words that are inappropriate for public forums) is mind boggling in my humble opinion. I have no sympathy for those who are willful and disobedient in the face of what is right, I am afraid.

You say that Curufinwe was disobedient in the face of what is right? But what is right i ask? To have your father killed and then sit and do nothing as the valar would have wished.

He killed the Teleri and it was dead wrong but couldn´t the Teleri lend their ships to move the noldor to ME and then return to Valinor? Why could they not do that, if there was a great friendship with the noldor?

Curufinwe hated Melkor more than anything in the whole world. He killed his father and he wanted revenge, would Fingolfin have gone to ME and sought revenge for his father against the will of the valar, I don´t think so.

Are you a broncos fan?

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Feanor
>Those who are less in wisdom should heed the words of the wise.

Hmmm, and the Valar I assume your reasoning were 'the wise'? With all their powers of foresight and wisdom did they not foresee the demise of the light of the 2 trees? This proves they were NOT all wise. They hadn't even set guard there! Blind idiocy!
Not only did they not go after Morgoth at once, they didn't even go when the second born, the Atani, came into being! If not for my sake at least for theirs!

Indeed, the Valar, who created that upon which ye stand and who serve the will of The One.

And yet ye, who are but a small part in the workings of Iluvatar, declare that innocence is blind idiocy?

You are swift to criticize those who have grown only slowly in their understanding of evil, for it has no hold upon them. It seems to me that perhaps you mistake the mercy of the Valar and their innocent neglect of the defence of the two trees for a hubris that does not exist.

The Valar did not go after Morgoth. But who are you to question the wisdom of the Powers and their reasons, you who are not wise enough to cool the heat of your own foolishness?

Foolishness indeed to expect that the Valar would abandon the long wisdom gained of countless ages to support the hatred of one Elda.

I cannot speak to the Atani, for they are beyond all my reckonings.

>Did the Teleri, in their innocence, also "betray" you? Did the followers of Fingolfin "betray" you? Is that why you burned the ships and left them to suffer the terrible passage of the Helcaraxe?


Had the Vala assisted me in the beginning none of this would have come to pass. Much needless suffering could have been averted, or had they not had the wisdom to foresee this too?

If ye had agreed to surrender the Silmarilli, much assistance you would have had, and lesser then, the grief of all would have been in later days. Should you, who cry out against the lawful rulers of the world, expect that they should answer your demands as though ye were Iluvatar? Do not assign blame to the Valar where it falls squarely upon thyself and thy willful nature.

>Those who do not understand mercy often debase the merciful.


There's a difference between mercy and stupidity.

And you, mighty Feanor? You have never committed errors? Have ne'er learned from them? Your lack of compassion is what dooms you.

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I would have come back and gotten [Fingolfin, etc.]... right after I obtained the silmarils.
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>Horse-poo. Your direct words to Maedhros were to the effect of "Let them crawl back to the Valar on their bellies if they will" or something of that sort.

The survivors of that trek turned out to be hardier and more resolute after their ordeal. You could say I did them a favour. And if the Vala were indeed so merciful as you speak, then suely it was in their power to save them.

"You could say I did them a favour"... WHAT?!?! Sirrah, you advance overly far. First you attempt to claim that you would have returned for Fingolfin. Now, you aided them through such black-hearted treachery?

As for the Vala, the Noldor of Fingolfin's host could have returned to Valinor and received the pardon of the Valar, as no small few did. That is, indeed, a mercy.

Even when they did FINALLY go after Morgoth at the end of the age they did so not at some predetermined or strategically planned point of time, but only when an emissary (Earendil) came and BEGGED them to help. Tell me, what part did wisdom play in the timing of their assault? NONE! It was pride. They wanted an apology.

And you, most prideful of all save Morgoth Bauglir and Sauron his servant, are the most proper evaluator of this?

They are the appointed guardians of the world. It is their DUTY to rid the world of evil. Not to wait for some emissary to beg them to go! If not for my silmaril, Earendil wouldn't have even made it to Aman, and they might never have attacked!
Fools! The lot of them!

And yet you, and your sons, were ever among the first to bring evil among the Quendi and, in later days, among all the Free Peoples. Should they have dealt harshly with you? Many, among them myself, believe that much evil might have been prevented.

Yet the Valar are wise, and would allow that free will which all have to be exercised to it's fullest.

You speak of mercy. Where was their mercy for the Sindarin? for the Atani? for the green elves? for the dwarves?

I cannot answer all that of which you speak here and now. Your question does trouble me, but not so much as your foul conduct, you who would question the mercy of others, but have none thyself.

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Feanor
>Feanor, this is without a doubt the best reply I have ever had to one of my attacks on Feanor. I am truly humbled by your greatness and your righteous indignation at me. Those damn Vala. If they had just left us alone in the first place, Melkor would never have been chained the first time and we could have been happy in Utumno. I'm with you..... screw em.


Thank you Grond. May I say that I have learned much myself from you and NEVER skip over any of your posts. But let me level w you, I'm not actually Feanor. I'm just some guy who has been v moved by Sil and LoTR. And I'm not even a v prolific reader of novels.
But I do believe that to ensure a great debate someone must play Devil's Advocate. And I know I know Feanor did have some major flaws but I do feel a certain affinity w him on some level (I'm going to start another thread [gee,think its about time?!] on why all you guys picked who you did, who/what that person is,etc. Who's Tyaronumen anyway?).

Think about it, all those Noldorim, LEAVING Aman! Imagine the strength of his words that would make them follow him and cause doubt in even the wisest of beings. I guess that's why I can't stand idly by while someone totally writes off Feanor.

-------------

Its adds a certain colour to the forum to post replies from the viewpoint of your 'forum name' doesn't it?

Certainly . Sir, you have asked who I am... My title of old is Tyaronumen which is Quenya -- "Agent of the West", for I serve the Valar and all of their creations who live in harmony with the beauty of Eä. My mother given name is Toronolva, as I have ever been a great friend of the children of Yavanna Kementari amongst all of Iluvatar's Children.

 

[Feanor]

>Indeed, the Valar, who created that upon which ye stand and who serve the will of The One.

I do not pretend to know the will of The One, but I do know that it was he who created Morgoth. And IF it was he who counselled Manwe to let Morgoth free it means that either: a) he had not have foresight of the coming evil OR b)that he knowingly unleashed this demon upon Arda.
Either case leads me to the decision that His Will serves His designs, not mine or my peoples'. So tell me why I should blindly follow the command of Manwe, who is but a servant of the ambiguous and fickle mind that ye would have me worship?

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>And yet ye, who are but a small part in the workings of Iluvatar, declare that innocence is blind idiocy?
You are swift to criticize those who have grown only slowly in their understanding of evil, for it has no hold upon them. It seems to me that perhaps you mistake the mercy of the Valar and their innocent neglect of the defence of the two trees for a hubris that does not exist.

Hmm... 'small part' you say? Meaning the opinions of those said are not worth heeding? 'Hubris that does not exist' you say?

Let me repond to that:
Much as I despise the judgement of your masters I exclude from blame 2 of them: Ulmo and Tulcas, for they ALWAYS held Morgoth in suspicion.
Indeed one of the vala (Tulcas) who is not even counted amongst one of the Eight had foresight enough beyond the reckoning his peers; does this not validate my contention that one who may be held as being 'but a small part in the workings of Illuvatar' may at times hold the judgement that is wiser than they?
And let those whom you say play 'but a small part' be judged by the singers of song and the tellers of tale!

For you to claim that any thoughts I or others may hold is naive and foolish simply because they go agst the will of thy masters and not judged on the strength of their own merits speaks to me of a hubris that reeks of a stench fouler than the dank lair of Ungoliant herself!

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> The Valar did not go after Morgoth. But who are you to question the wisdom of the Powers and their reasons, you who are not wise enough to cool the heat of your own foolishness?

I question all. All people, all things, all ideas. I seek ever to build upon, to improve. Who am I you say? I am he who did not accept that the fairest of gems could not be improved upon. I am he who thus created the silmarils. I am he who forever captured the light of the Trees, something which your own lords failed to accomplish.
I am he who refuses to bow to a footstool of the One, I am he who seeks truth. I am he who will not let evil go unpunished and woe to any who try and stand in my way! I AM FEANOR! .



>I cannot speak to the Atani, for they are beyond all my reckonings.

Beyond your reckonings?! I really am disappointed in such a feeble answer.



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>Did the Teleri, in their innocence, also "betray" you? Did the followers of Fingolfin "betray" you? Is that why you burned the ships and left them to suffer the terrible passage of the Helcaraxe?


Had the Vala assisted me in the beginning none of this would have come to pass. Much needless suffering could have been averted, or had they not had the wisdom to foresee this too?

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>Should you, who cry out against the lawful rulers of the world, expect that they should answer your demands as though ye were Iluvatar?

I expect them to answer my demands as one who has been wronged by ONE OF THEIR OWN KIND! By one who's property has been vandalised and stolen, by one who's very own dearest father hath been slain, by one who's very own dignity and essence been stained-- ALL BY A VALA!

>If ye had agreed to surrender the Silmarilli, much assistance you would have had, and lesser then, the grief of all would have been in later days. Do not assign blame to the Valar where it falls squarely upon thyself and thy willful nature.

You expect me to blindly trust them. One of who's own kind murdered my father?! I say let them PROVE their worthiness to ME and then I'll consider the question of the silmarils.

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>Those who do not understand mercy often debase the merciful.


There's a difference between mercy and stupidity.

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>And you, mighty Feanor? You have never committed errors? Have ne'er learned from them? Your lack of compassion is what dooms you.

You cannot even admit your masters being capable of error. Hubris indeed!



The survivors of that trek turned out to be hardier and more resolute after their ordeal. You could say I did them a favour. And if the Vala were indeed so merciful as you speak, then suely it was in their power to save them.


"You could say I did them a favour"... WHAT?!?! Sirrah, you advance overly far. First you attempt to claim that you would have returned for Fingolfin. Now, you aided them through such black-hearted treachery?
As for the Vala, the Noldor of Fingolfin's host could have returned to Valinor and received the pardon of the Valar, as no small few did. That is, indeed, a mercy.

Methinks you show more mercy to one of your own (Morgoth) than to my people. Was this not the real reason for loosing him?

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Even when they did FINALLY go after Morgoth at the end of the age they did so not at some predetermined or strategically planned point of time, but only when an emissary (Earendil) came and BEGGED them to help. Tell me, what part did wisdom play in the timing of their assault? NONE! It was pride. They wanted an apology.
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>And you, most prideful of all save Morgoth Bauglir and Sauron his servant, are the most proper evaluator of this?

Since no other evaluator has come forth, aye, I am indeed the most proper!


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They are the appointed guardians of the world. It is their DUTY to rid the world of evil. Not to wait for some emissary to beg them to go! If not for my silmaril, Earendil wouldn't have even made it to Aman, and they might never have attacked!
Fools! The lot of them!
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>And yet you, and your sons, were ever among the first to bring evil among the Quendi and, in later days, among all the Free Peoples. Should they have dealt harshly with you? Many, among them myself, believe that much evil might have been prevented.

Yet the Valar are wise, and would allow that free will which all have to be exercised to it's fullest.


Such hypocrisy, you who hold free will to be such a virtue, yet mock and degrade me, ME FEANOR, a more perfect example of
free will of which cannot be found in all the vastness of Arda!
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You speak of mercy. Where was their mercy for the Sindarin? for the Atani? for the green elves? for the dwarves?
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>I cannot answer all that of which you speak here and now. Your question does trouble me, but not so much as your foul conduct, you who would question the mercy of others, but have none thyself

That is the key isn't it - YOU CANNOT ANSWER ALL. Yet it was MY father who has died by one of your own, AND YOU CANNOT ANSWER?!! Or will not?!! Your responses only further my resolve!

 

[Feanor]

>Certainly . Sir, you have asked who I am... My title of old is Tyaronumen which is Quenya -- "Agent of the West", for I serve the Valar and all of their creations who live in harmony with the beauty of Eä. My mother given name is Toronolva, as I have ever been a great friend of the children of Yavanna Kementari amongst all of Iluvatar's Children.

Pleased to meet you, kind sir.


And might I introduce myself:

Feanor's the name, free will's the game!

 

[Mormegil]

And this year's award for longest post goes to.........
FEANOR!!

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Feanor
>Indeed, the Valar, who created that upon which ye stand and who serve the will of The One.

I do not pretend to know the will of The One, but I do know that it was he who created Morgoth. And IF it was he who counselled Manwe to let Morgoth free it means that either: a) he had not have foresight of the coming evil OR b)that he knowingly unleashed this demon upon Arda.
Either case leads me to the decision that His Will serves His designs, not mine or my peoples'. So tell me why I should blindly follow the command of Manwe, who is but a servant of the ambiguous and fickle mind that ye would have me worship?

You are correct, Feanor, when ye say that Iluvatar follows His own designs and not those of any other.

But ye are, whether ye will it or not, but a mote before Him, being created by Him for purposes that none save He might know. I cannot advise ye as to why it is proper to follow the command of Manwe, though none demand it blindly of ye, save that Manwe is just, and he is wise, and that since ye are lacking in both those qualities of wisdom and justice, ye would do well to follow one who has them in abundance and to understand that it is beyond the ability of limited beings such as we to conceive of all in Ea with it's many splendourous dimensions.

----------------------

>And yet ye, who are but a small part in the workings of Iluvatar, declare that innocence is blind idiocy? You are swift to criticize those who have grown only slowly in their understanding of evil, for it has no hold upon them. It seems to me that perhaps you mistake the mercy of the Valar and their innocent neglect of the defence of the two trees for a hubris that does not exist.

Hmm... 'small part' you say? Meaning the opinions of those said are not worth heeding? 'Hubris that does not exist' you say?

Meaning that ye should not comment upon that which it is beyond ye're ability to comprehend.

Let me repond to that:
Much as I despise the judgement of your masters I exclude from blame 2 of them: Ulmo and Tulcas, for they ALWAYS held Morgoth in suspicion.
Indeed one of the vala (Tulcas) who is not even counted amongst one of the Eight had foresight enough beyond the reckoning his peers; does this not validate my contention that one who may be held as being 'but a small part in the workings of Illuvatar' may at times hold the judgement that is wiser than they?
And let those whom you say play 'but a small part' be judged by the singers of song and the tellers of tale!

For you to claim that any thoughts I or others may hold is naive and foolish simply because they go agst the will of thy masters and not judged on the strength of their own merits speaks to me of a hubris that reeks of a stench fouler than the dank lair of Ungoliant herself!

Tulkas is in harmony with the will of Iluvatar and that of Manwe. The same cannot be said of yourself or your deeds, and so it does not validate that which was BEHIND your fair seeming words, which is mainly to contend that ye are right.

And NAY, Feanor. Ye are judged before Iluvatar in the Halls of Ea and the words of no other will succour ye from the fate that ye have earned to dwell in Mandos until the end of days.

Ye deny the wisdom of the Valar and of Iluvatar at thy own choosing and speak blackly of them, never acknowledging that the very framework within which ye're mind works comes from Iluvatar, and that thy skill is due not solely to thyself, but that Iluvatar also has willed this. As Morgoth arose in pride and so thought to work against Iluvatar and against the Valar, so you in your own small pride also rise. But ye serve only to further the work of thy Creator and ultimate Master.

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> The Valar did not go after Morgoth. But who are you to question the wisdom of the Powers and their reasons, you who are not wise enough to cool the heat of your own foolishness?

I question all. All people, all things, all ideas. I seek ever to build upon, to improve. Who am I you say? I am he who did not accept that the fairest of gems could not be improved upon. I am he who thus created the silmarils. I am he who forever captured the light of the Trees, something which your own lords failed to accomplish.
I am he who refuses to bow to a footstool of the One, I am he who seeks truth. I am he who will not let evil go unpunished and woe to any who try and stand in my way! I AM FEANOR! .

We are all well aware of who ye are Feanor -- none could forget the Elda associated so closely with the creation of the Silmarils and the terrible oath that followed.

Ye question all, but this is foolishness. Do ye question the ocean? Do ye question the sky? Of what purpose is this foolishness? Ye seek to improve upon the beauty of a simple rose petal? There are many questions, but no satisfactory answers to those which question the fundamental nature of Iluvatar's will and Creation.

As for capturing the light of the Trees -- you merely accomplish that which none of the Valar had attempted.

>I cannot speak to the Atani, for they are beyond all my reckonings.

Beyond your reckonings?! I really am disappointed in such a feeble answer.

Ye would savour, rather, lies such as those which Morgoth whispered, and you believed in your rashness?

I will not lie to ye and claim knowledge where I have none.

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>Did the Teleri, in their innocence, also "betray" you? Did the followers of Fingolfin "betray" you? Is that why you burned the ships and left them to suffer the terrible passage of the Helcaraxe?


Had the Vala assisted me in the beginning none of this would have come to pass. Much needless suffering could have been averted, or had they not had the wisdom to foresee this too?

The Valar should have forseen that ye are a murderer of thine ancient allies and kindred?

Do not seek to blame the Valar for your unforgivable and hideous actions. Ye are a murderer and are branded such in the histories of the Elder Days.

>If ye had agreed to surrender the Silmarilli, much assistance you would have had, and lesser then, the grief of all would have been in later days. Do not assign blame to the Valar where it falls squarely upon thyself and thy willful nature.

You expect me to blindly trust them. One of who's own kind murdered my father?! I say let them PROVE their worthiness to ME and then I'll consider the question of the silmarils.

Ye have no respect for thy creator. Ye have no respect for those who have created thy world and have not denied it from ye save after you have committed unforgivable acts.

You are the one with much to prove, son of Finwe -- you are the murderer, the untrue, the oath-taker. Not the Valar.

quote:
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>Those who do not understand mercy often debase the merciful.


There's a difference between mercy and stupidity.

Yes -- and ye are unaware of the difference, having never felt mercy for another.

>And you, mighty Feanor? You have never committed errors? Have ne'er learned from them? Your lack of compassion is what dooms you.

You cannot even admit your masters being capable of error. Hubris indeed!

Then ye are blind, for the admission is there, though it absolves ye of none of thy guilt, nor of thy arrogance.

[/B]
Methinks you show more mercy to one of your own (Morgoth) than to my people. Was this not the real reason for loosing him?

[/B]

I know not of what ye speak when ye refer to 'my own', for I am of the Eldalie, as surely as thyself.

He was loosed because his sentence was finished, and he who set such judgement upon Morgoth would not be a liar.

Such hypocrisy, you who hold free will to be such a virtue, yet mock and degrade me, ME FEANOR, a more perfect example of free will of which cannot be found in all the vastness of Arda!

I have done naught but advise ye of thy deeds, Feanor. If in doing so, mockery and degradation seem to play a part, that is the fault of thy actions, not of their telling.

And ye have misused your free will, Feanor. Great indeed are the gifts given to ye in craftsmanship, but selfish and grasping are ye indeed to share them not for the benefit of all, e'en while ye walk upon and breath that which the Valar crafted, upon that world which is a most perfect example of the generous nature of all of the Valar.

Selfish indeed, for ye choose to serve only thyself, and then only but poorly, when you would better serve thyself by serving all.

>I cannot answer all that of which you speak here and now. Your question does trouble me, but not so much as your foul conduct, you who would question the mercy of others, but have none thyself
That is the key isn't it - YOU CANNOT ANSWER ALL. Yet it was MY father who has died by one of your own, AND YOU CANNOT ANSWER?!! Or will not?!! Your responses only further my resolve!

Thou would that I invent answers, then, to satisfy thy urge for argument? Nay, Son of Finwe, for it was not merely YOUR father who died, but the King of the Noldor and father to them, though ye were the foremost in his care.

And though it would seem to be thy purpose to confuse me with those whom I serve, I again tell thee that I but serve the Valar, and seek no glory, nor mastery, while claiming none, and my kinship to ye is the closer by blood.

Thy deeds have no defence, Feanor. Thy grievance with the Valar cannot justify thy actions against the Teleri and the Noldor, e'en if much else might be forgiven.

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Feanor
>Certainly . Sir, you have asked who I am... My title of old is Tyaronumen which is Quenya -- "Agent of the West", for I serve the Valar and all of their creations who live in harmony with the beauty of Eä. My mother given name is Toronolva, as I have ever been a great friend of the children of Yavanna Kementari amongst all of Iluvatar's Children.

Pleased to meet you, kind sir.


And might I introduce myself:

Feanor's the name, free will's the game!

Hee! There is no mistaking *YOU* for anyone else...