Who would come out on top: Treebeard or Old Man Willow?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Treebeard seems like the good guardian of Fanghorn Forest (and perhaps once all trees out there in the first age forest.) and old man willow seems like the evil power behind the Old Forest of the Shire.

As far as we know, treebeard and willow never met. But, if they ever did, who would come out on top?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

OMW seems to have only very limited mobility. I think Treebeard would take him.

 

[Marina Brigitt]

Treebeard would come on the top. Who would not like to have him in his own forest. Without him nothing would be the same in the LOTR world.

Treebeard seems like the good guardian of Fanghorn Forest (and perhaps once all trees out there in the first age forest.) and old man willow seems like the evil power behind the Old Forest of the Shire.

As far as we know, treebeard and willow never met. But, if they ever did, who would come out on top?

 

[Ent]

Old Man Willow is a bit of an enigma.
Who or what is he? Was he ever an Ent - one that is hourning? Or was he always as he is?
Interesting it is, he sits on the very edge of the Shire, yet we understand Sauron was pretty much unaware of the Shire.

Whence then, comes Old Man Willow's ancient mailce? If not born of Sauron's hate, does it come from the very earth itself - Melkor's "one ring" and the deep corruption Morgoth infused into Arda itself? We read of no other Ents Hourning, or Hourns, with such extensive power - or even having concern for anything much any more, other than as they are directed by the Shepherds to do things - like help at the battle of Helm's Deep.

What then should we make of a 'battle' between, essentially, a malevolent old Hourn at best, and a Tree Shepherd?

If the very trees/huorns themselves obey the Shepherds, and can move at great distances and speed when the need arises, would Willow's power be great enough to overcome whatever 'power' it is the Shepherds wield?

Treebeard vs. Old Man Willow... an interesting concept.

But given Willow's lack of ability to move about much on his own... (he seems he needs to draw his prey to him, vs. going to his prey) - Ent thinks probably this:
1. Treebeard would not be deceived by Willow's deceptions.
2. Treebeard would KNOW of Willow's attempts to lure.
3. Treebeard would not be caught unawares sleeping on a Willow root.
4. Treebeard would splinter Willow as he splinters stone (or worse) and Willow would become naught but matchsticks.

Naturally, the subject belongs in The Great Halls of Speculation as we've no evidence one way or another, but... Ent roots for Treebeard on this one.

 

[The Tall Hobbit]

Old Man Willow is a bit of an enigma.
Who or what is he? Was he ever an Ent - one that is hourning? Or was he always as he is?
Interesting it is, he sits on the very edge of the Shire, yet we understand Sauron was pretty much unaware of the Shire.

I believe that the closest Tolkien ever came to explaining the origin of Old Man Willow is found in HOME Vol 6 - First Phase - Chapter VI:

Amongst [Tom's] talk there was here and there much said of Old Man
Willow, and Merry learned enough to content him (more than
enough, for it was not comfortable lore), though not enough for
him to understand how that grey thirsty earth-bound spirit had
become imprisoned in the greatest Willow of the Forest. The tree
did not die, though its heart went rotten, while the malice of the
Old Man drew power out of earth and water, and spread like a net,
like fine root-threads in the ground, and invisible twig-fingers in
the air, till it had infected or subjugated nearly all the trees on both
sides of the valley.

 

[Ent]

So, according to the above (and thank you for reminding Ent of it) Old Man Willow's "source" is essentially the same as that of the Ents - as according to SIL, they 'became' when the 'spirits from afar' came and inhabited them.

An interesting difference: the 'spirits from afar' 'inhabit' those becoming Ents. This 'great, thirsty, earth-bound spirit' is said to 'have become imprisoned.'

Clearly the malace 'drawing power from earth and water' which Melkor had corrupted, would speak volumes.

Hum. Very worth pondering.

 

[Eljorahir]

Depends on the contest.

Foot race goes to Treebeard.
Staring contest: Old Man Willow
Who can put a hobbit to sleep the fastest?: Willow

Whence then, comes Old Man Willow's ancient mailce? If not born of Sauron's hate, does it come from the very earth itself

old man willow seems like the evil power behind the Old Forest of the Shire.

I don't think of him as evil. Old Man Willow's malice may be rooted in legitimate grievance; he's defending his kind against the destroyers and usurpers.

'Tom's words laid bare the hearts of trees and their thoughts, which were often dark and strange, and filled with a hatred of things that go free upon the earth, gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning: destroyers and usurpers.'

And, going way back, Yavanna's request was granted:
'Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!'

 

[Ent]

hmmm hrroooommmm... good points to fold in, @Eljorahir.
Ent will ponder these, as he works out his Ode to Old Man Willow - which somehow now he feels compelled to write.


Keep the thoughts and points coming in, everyone - they will all be considered in the preparation of the Ode.

 

[Valandil]

Old Man Willow is a bit of an enigma.
Who or what is he? Was he ever an Ent - one that is hourning? Or was he always as he is?
Interesting it is, he sits on the very edge of the Shire, yet we understand Sauron was pretty much unaware of the Shire.

Whence then, comes Old Man Willow's ancient mailce? If not born of Sauron's hate, does it come from the very earth itself - Melkor's "one ring" and the deep corruption Morgoth infused into Arda itself? We read of no other Ents Hourning, or Hourns, with such extensive power - or even having concern for anything much any more, other than as they are directed by the Shepherds to do things - like help at the battle of Helm's Deep.

What then should we make of a 'battle' between, essentially, a malevolent old Hourn at best, and a Tree Shepherd?

If the very trees/huorns themselves obey the Shepherds, and can move at great distances and speed when the need arises, would Willow's power be great enough to overcome whatever 'power' it is the Shepherds wield?

Treebeard vs. Old Man Willow... an interesting concept.

But given Willow's lack of ability to move about much on his own... (he seems he needs to draw his prey to him, vs. going to his prey) - Ent thinks probably this:
1. Treebeard would not be deceived by Willow's deceptions.
2. Treebeard would KNOW of Willow's attempts to lure.
3. Treebeard would not be caught unawares sleeping on a Willow root.
4. Treebeard would splinter Willow as he splinters stone (or worse) and Willow would become naught but matchsticks.

Naturally, the subject belongs in The Great Halls of Speculation as we've no evidence one way or another, but... Ent roots for Treebeard on this one.

@Ent - Wouldn’t you be a bit biased on this one?

Still, I completely agree with you. The Shepherd of the Trees would not be lulled to sleep or otherwise affected by the Willow Song, and if he had reason to, or was sufficiently roused, would make quick work of Old Man Willow.

Kept trying to just say O-M-W (without dashes) but my phone kept converting it to, “On my way!”

 

[Ent]

@Ent - Wouldn’t you be a bit biased on this one?

While Ent would like to believe he can function beyond, through, or sans his bias, nonetheless biases are tricksy things indeed.

That said, he has pondered again, worked hard on step 6 of the path to a clean perception, believes he has arrived there, and churned further to what he believes to be a proper perspective on this matter.

By and large he finds he must hold with his initial statements above.

But he has come up with a new wonder into the matter.

Since Old Man Willow traps people (as well as who knows what else) inside himself, one must wonder about his digestive system.
How does it look?
How does it work?
What happens to his meals in the end?

Certainly very un-treelike... the corruption of Melkor must indeed go deep, perverting even the essence of things' creation in ways Ent has not heretofor considered.

 

[Valandil]

While Ent would like to believe he can function beyond, thorugh, or sans his bias, nonetheless biases are tricksy things indeed.

That said, he has pondered again, worked hard on step 6 of the path to a clean perception, believes he has arrived there, and churned further to what he believes to be a proper perspective on this matter.

By and large he finds he must hold with his initial statements above.

But he has come up with a new wonder into the matter.

Since Old Man Willow traps people (as well as who knows what else) inside himself, one must wonder about his digestive system.
How does it look?
How does it work?
What happens to his meals in the end?

Certainly very un-treelike... the corruption of Melkor must indeed go deep, perverting even the essence of things' creation in ways Ent has not heretofor considered.

I suspect that the object of his trapping was to crush, and later discard. Or turn into a pulp and shove into the earth beneath and around him. Not to consume - directly. But I could be very wrong. Perhaps Tom B would know, or the Elves - if either would ever tell.

 

[Ricardo]

well, old man willow put the hobbits to sleep using some kind of magic.

Treebeard did it by boring them to nearly death

OMW was limited to the old forest and his power was mostly the ability to control the rest of the trees there. Treebeard wasn't limited to just Fangorn, although that where he stayed, but he wasn't always there (e.g. Dorthonion).

Hard to say but I believe Old Willow magic would have had little effect on TB, and TB could have possibly turn the other trees around, not to forget that the other ents would follow him.

 

[Ent]

I suspect that the object of his trapping was to crush, and later discard. Or turn into a pulp and shove into the earth beneath and around him. Not to consume - directly. But I could be very wrong. Perhaps Tom B would know, or the Elves - if either would ever tell.

Yuk..! His heartwood must be dark indeed.

 

[Valandil]

well, old man willow put the hobbits to sleep using some kind of magic.

Treebeard did it by boring them to nearly death

OMW was limited to the old forest and his power was mostly the ability to control the rest of the trees there. Treebeard wasn't limited to just Fangorn, although that where he stayed, but he wasn't always there (e.g. Dorthonion).

Hard to say but I believe Old Willow magic would have had little effect on TB, and TB could have possibly turn the other trees around, not to forget that the other ents would follow him.

Oooooo… I should put you on Report for talking that way about Treebeard!

😆😉