Why does Frodo reveal the Ring?

Hmm, MM. Seems like you're working yourself into a bit of a tizzy, there. Before you get too upset with the lack of Palantir and intellectual Saruman/Gandalf discussion, remember that you're assuming that these don't happen, without one credible bit of evidence to support your assumption. Given what you've earlier said about Sauron and his assumptions on the whereabouts of the Ring, I'd think that you would know better.

Personally I did see a Merry and Pippin growth in this picture. MM has already alluded to one of the aspects of this growth- they are not nearly as funny this time. Much of their humor in the first one came from stuff that the characters would think of as funny- stuff they were doing to amuse themselves. This is immature, and the very fact that it doesn't occur in the second movie shows us that they are maturing (although I'm sure MM prefers to colour it as "PJ forgot about them"). Next off, we have the bit between Merry and Pippin- Pippin says that they can always go back to the Shire- to which Merry replies that if things keep up there will be no Shire to go back to. This is great stuff, and clearly shows a growth from the two Hobbits who were setting off fireworks and stealing crops in the first film. This line really hits home for Pippin, and it is he who resolves to do something about it (Merry being presumably too downtrodden at this time). This is one of the first glimmers of "intelligence" (as Pippin called it back in Rivendell) that the young Took has shown in the movies thus far- the other glimmers coming when he removes his brooch as a sign for Strider and where is able to cut his bonds and free himself during the Uruk-hai/Rohirrim fracas. These bits are all growth from Pippin in the first film, and nicely mirror his growth in the second novel. Considering how seldome we see the duo in the second film, I thought that they got a considerable amount of growth. Can't wait to see the next film, as I'm sure the trend will continue.

I think Merry and Pippin are poorly developed in the TTT book as well. Apart from their initial escape they are quite passive, sitting around doing nothing whilst the Ents are making up their mind, and having a meal and a smoke at the end. In fact, they have a greater impact on the course of events in the film than in the book!

Click to expand...

I agree but to be honest, I think this is actually the main problem of TTT film. PJ seems to be downplaying the 'secondary' characters (Theoden, Faramir, Treebeard mainly) in order to make the fellowship characters seem even more important, which IMO is completely unnecessary.

Oh, no! I agree with you, Faded Glory. The "twins" are definitely much more mature in TTT. But, after all, they have seen Boromir (whom they loved) die in their defense and been dragged across Rohan by creatures whom they never in their life thought to meet, so I would suppose a certain amount of maturity would result in that kind of experience.

I am not "upset" about the palantir, but you must remember that Tolkien's story is like a great mosaic or puzzle. Each pieces leads to three or four other pieces. If you take out one, it is not just that "one" that is affected, but all the other pieces that arose from that one piece. Given what Jackson has left out up until now - and that is in two three hour films - if he tries to put even a fraction of it back in the third film, we are looking at about 5 hours - and that simply isn't going to happen.

Now, we know he has deep-sixed SoS but he will have the Gray Havens. He certainly has to have the Battle of the Pelannor and probably the pseudo-battle before the Black Gates (which, by the way, in TTT were spectacular). He also, of course,will have Shelob and the taking of the Ring to the Fire although he is probably going to have the crossing of Mordor be more of a sprint than a marathon. And he will have Aragorn's crowning and wedding, and somewhere along the line, Saruman has to get his "comeuppence", so right there you're looking at a film that's well over three hours without the palantir or the Paths of the Dead which probably will not be included. How he has arranged Pelannor, I don't know, but Mr. Jackson kept pushing things out of TTT and into ROTK to make room for warg riders and elvish dreams, so heaven only knows how he's going to fit in the necessary plot ingredients in the final film.

Yes, it will be a challenge. The coming year is going to be a long one for all of us!

fG

Originally posted by aragil


Personally I did see a Merry and Pippin growth in this picture. This is great stuff, and clearly shows a growth from the two Hobbits who were setting off fireworks and stealing crops in the first film. This line really hits home for Pippin, and it is he who resolves to do something about it (Merry being presumably too downtrodden at this time). This is one of the first glimmers of "intelligence" (as Pippin called it back in Rivendell) that the young Took has shown in the movies thus far- the other glimmers coming when he removes his brooch as a sign for Strider and where is able to cut his bonds and free himself during the Uruk-hai/Rohirrim fracas. These bits are all growth from Pippin in the first film, and nicely mirror his growth in the second novel. Considering how seldome we see the duo in the second film, I thought that they got a considerable amount of growth. Can't wait to see the next film, as I'm sure the trend will continue.

Click to expand...

Do you see their petition to the Ents, egging them on to battle with Saruman as character growth also? Thank God almighty we have these halflings to send Fangorn into battle! Absolute drivel, nearly as much as Sam's rousing speech in Osgiliath! How can you or anyone actually defend this tripe?

Surely it was madness to depict the revelation of the whereabouts of the Ring? The whole plot of TLofR depends on keeping Sauron guessing as to the potential ringbearer/wielder. A justifiable criticism of PJ's plot diversion?

Originally posted by Aldarion
Surely it was madness to depict the revelation of the whereabouts of the Ring? The whole plot of TLofR depends on keeping Sauron guessing as to the potential ringbearer/wielder. A justifiable criticism of PJ's plot diversion?

Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly. Indeed, it is quite annoying seeing Frodo going about with the Ring displayed like a sorority girl's "love token". The chain has already broken or come undone once (in the mountains when Boromir picks it up out of the snow), yet the hobbit seems to have no concern about it getting "lost" again!

Nevertheless, doubtless Mr. Jackson's apologists will find a very credible reason for the entire incident. Yeah!

Thank God almighty we have these halflings to send Fangorn into battle! Absolute drivel, nearly as much as Sam's rousing speech in Osgiliath! How can you or anyone actually defend this tripe?

Click to expand...

"Even the smallest person can change the course of the future."



If you want drivel - what was that with Frodo 'petting' the ring. Yuk, give me a break.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Do you see their petition to the Ents, egging them on to battle with Saruman as character growth also? Thank God almighty we have these halflings to send Fangorn into battle! Absolute drivel, nearly as much as Sam's rousing speech in Osgiliath! How can you or anyone actually defend this tripe?

Click to expand...

hehehehe. COuldnt put it better meself !!! PJ 's idea of char development is to not show the char on screen at all and then completely out of the blue change the char, knowing that in the 3 hrs of the previous film ppl would have slept thru his horse manure

the ring is getting to him. i guess he is showing the nazgul the ring and offer it or something.

PJ has said that he "needed" to change Faramir, and send F and S to Osgiliath, in order to "remind the audience of the power of the ring"
PJs defenders ask the critics to provide a workable alternative.

So here it is, and what's more, it's largely in the book.

We could simply have Faramir *not find out* that they carry the ring. The book itself takes this tack for several pages. The "power of the ring" could be shown by the urgency and concern on the part of Sam and Frodo to not reveal it. Faramir's good nature remains intact, and does not have to be reconstructed if he is to be accepted in RotK. 15 minutes of PJ-invented plot can be removed. In its place we could have Aragorn and the Palantir (and maybe even end the battle at Helm's Deep properly) The idea that Sam and Frodo could sneak into Mordor now makes sense again, because like in the book Sauron would be led to believe that Aragorn carried the ring.

It took me all of 2 minutes to think of this alternative.

I think, perhaps, they should have "beta tested" this release

Originally posted by Archon
PJ has said that he "needed" to change Faramir, and send F and S to Osgiliath, in order to "remind the audience of the power of the ring"
PJs defenders ask the critics to provide a workable alternative.

So here it is, and what's more, it's largely in the book.

We could simply have Faramir *not find out* that they carry the ring. The book itself takes this tack for several pages. The "power of the ring" could be shown by the urgency and concern on the part of Sam and Frodo to not reveal it. Faramir's good nature remains intact, and does not have to be reconstructed if he is to be accepted in RotK. 15 minutes of PJ-invented plot can be removed. In its place we could have Aragorn and the Palantir (and maybe even end the battle at Helm's Deep properly) The idea that Sam and Frodo could sneak into Mordor now makes sense again, because like in the book Sauron would be led to believe that Aragorn carried the ring.

It took me all of 2 minutes to think of this alternative.

I think, perhaps, they should have "beta tested" this release

Click to expand...

Or we could have what actually was in the book: Faramir questions the hobbits, learns they were with Boromir and also that there was some sort of conflict between Boromir and Frodo (also in the film). Faramir recounts the dream and remembers "Isildur's bane" (Faramir did have the dream in the film as well), but decides that their condition is too dangerous to continue questioning Frodo. At that point, to gain the hobbits confidence (and thus their cooperation), he makes the vow not to touch the object even if it were lying by the side of the road! Once that is done, the matter is settled. No need to drag the hobbits anywhere because Faramir has vowed not to take the Ring and once he learns of his brother's downfall, the last thing an intelligent person would do would be to bring such a dangerous thing into Minas Tirith. It would be a virtual "Trojan horse" in the city.

This is essentially Tolkien's plot and I still cannot see what was "wrong" with it since it could have been accomplished easier and quicker than the re-write as well as keeping Faramir decent and noble. Or perhaps that was the problem?

I have to agree with the people who object to the change in Faramir's character in the film. In fact for me I would go even further - that Faramir does not do the obvious thing and seize a potentially powerful weapon is one of the key parts of the story. He felt that his oath not to touch it made it impossible.

By doing so Faramir is in effect sentencing his country to death.

His father Denethor is clearly of the opinion that Faramir did the wrong thing and chastises him for failing to bring the deliverance that Minas Tirith so desperately needs. Faramir however puts personal morality above realpolitik.

In the film Faramir's motives are completely inexplicable, to me at any rate. Does he only release Frodo once he realises the ring is not any use to Gondor after all? I just couldn't tell.

I think this has undermined one of the key themes of the book, ie that we have to behave properly all the time. The end does not justify the means. Leave that out and all you have left is a Hollywood action movie.....

Originally posted by colin
I have to agree with the people who object to the change in Faramir's character in the film. In fact for me I would go even further - that Faramir does not do the obvious thing and seize a potentially powerful weapon is one of the key parts of the story. He felt that his oath not to touch it made it impossible.

By doing so Faramir is in effect sentencing his country to death.

His father Denethor is clearly of the opinion that Faramir did the wrong thing and chastises him for failing to bring the deliverance that Minas Tirith so desperately needs. Faramir however puts personal morality above realpolitik.

In the film Faramir's motives are completely inexplicable, to me at any rate. Does he only release Frodo once he realises the ring is not any use to Gondor after all? I just couldn't tell.

I think this has undermined one of the key themes of the book, ie that we have to behave properly all the time. The end does not justify the means. Leave that out and all you have left is a Hollywood action movie.....

Click to expand...

Perhaps there is hope that even big budgets and hi-tech special effects can't overcome intelligence and virtue!

God bless Colin for a clarity of vision unconfounded by either glitz or gore.

i think the ring started to get to him, and he was thinking that it was over and just gave up.

Originally posted by colin


I think this has undermined one of the key themes of the book, ie that we have to behave properly all the time. The end does not justify the means. Leave that out and all you have left is a Hollywood action movie.....

Click to expand...

But film-Faramir is acting properly! As a military commander operating in occupied Ithilien he does exactly what is expected from him - capture the suspect hobbits and send them to Minas Tirith.

He then sees the effects of the Ring on Frodo and hears from Sam what Boromir did, and understands the dangers of using the Ring. He places his conscience before following orders, puts his life on the line and lets Frodo go.

I see nothing wrong with this depiction of Faramir's character. There are clearly moral messages here, for those who care to look beyond their disappointment with a change from the book.

fG

maybe the black captian didn't see it.

Originally posted by greypilgrim
maybe the black captain didn't see it.

Click to expand...

The problem is that the Ringwraiths don't "see" as men do anyway. But the Ring is something that they sense, especially when they are close to it. Had Frodo actually done anything so foolish, the Nazgul would have immediately attacked and either captured or killed him and secured the Ring.

However, even had (for some absolutely unfathomable reason) that not occurred, you can bet that the place would have been thick with Nazgul within the quarter hour. They would never have simply acquiesced to the Ring "disappearing" again after the travesty at the fords! And, of course, once that happened, Frodo's chances of taking the Ring anywhere successfully would have been the same as that proverbial hellacious snowball.

yeah. that was a bad choice pj. what are you thinking? being at osgiliath was cool, but to show the ring like that.....i didn't like the ending at all.