Why the 🐴horse thievery?

[pgt]

Of black Rohirrim horses, I had an 'impression' that 'lots', for the lack of a better term, were stolen by Sauron's minions. I don't have the specific references handy but it seems like it was mentioned by Eomer(?) and it was enough of an ongoing problem that it affected their grazing and herding practices and such.

But I don't seem to recall any sort of Mordor based cavalry like say a division or even a battalion. In fact weren't the 9 riders and the Sauron's PR guy it?

And at the same time there must have been a serious R&D effort going on to develop flight based transportation systems for the 9 riders, er, flyers. Such a program suggests an ability to breed and so forth. One might think if they could pull this feat off, they could also derive a basic horse breeding program to keep such a small handfull of favorite bigshots mounted.

So why all the horse thievery?

thanks,
-T

 

[Niniel]

Maybe because the horses that were bred by the Rohirrim where better horses than Suaron himself could have bred? After all the Rohirrim horses where trained espacially for war, and stealing them would have been much easier than to start a whole breeding program, especially since this might result in horses that were unsuitable for war, and had cost lots of food in raising them. The Rohan horses were the best in ME, and nothing Sauron could breed himself would equal them. So why all the trouble when he could just as easy steal ready-made horses, that are directly usable for war? Also Sauron needed them fast, and starting a breeding program would have cost too much time.
But I don't really know what he would need them for; only the Nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron are mentioned as riding horses. Somehow I can't imagine the Rohan horses to be willing to carry the Nazgul (or any other servant of Sauron); it would have been very strange to imagine the Black Riders riding Rohan horses! But I'm sure Sauron could find other uses for the them, e.g. for fast communication or something.

 

[HLGStrider]

I can think of some uses. For instance, pulling wagons and machinery. They must've had some because of the battering ram, Grond, and the catapult used to send the heads over the walls. . .so they would've need something to transport these things. I can't see them using oliphants. Sure, the orcs probably could have done it on their own, but it would've taken time.

It seems strange to waste a thourough bred on what could be done by a mule, however.

Perhaps the generals of the Southrens and Corsairs wanted horses (I can't see orcs riding, but who knows). Perhaps it was just pyschological war fare. . .

The world will never know. . .

 

[YayGollum]

Oh. I just thought that they stole a lot because the things were always dying. I doubt that the Nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron were especially nice to them. But sure, there were plenty of other humans that paid attention to Sauron. I would think that they'd have their own horses, though. oh well. Nevermind.

 

[pgt]

Originally posted by Niniel
the Rohirrim where better horses than Suaron himself could have bred?

Were they? Where would the 'seed' specimens have come from for his own 'inferior' horses? Also his horses ultimately bore unsavory characters - something a plain ol' Rohirrim stock may not have been up to. His horses were capable of long travel distances and presumably speed. Consider the distance to places like Erebor and Shire from Mordor. I just don't see any way to make a blanket dismissal of Sauron horses being inferior to Rohirrim horses.

Rohirrim horses where trained espacially for war, and stealing them would have been much easier than to start a whole breeding program,

I'm not quite sure I'm following your distinction between training a horse and breeding a horse?

Also since by my count he only fielded about 10 horses - just what kind of 'war maneuvers' would you expect he needed to put those 'trained' horses through?

War horses used in Rohirrim cav were trained to, if do anything, move en masse while maintaining ranks. And that's as much or more a training issue of the rider than the horse.

Besides - I'd also speculate that the horses left to roam and graze were not their front line cavalry horses. Rather these horses were the population from which selective cavalry horses were chosen for further pairings w/ men and trained from there. Not that these were inferior horse - simply not yet selected based on whatever criteria. That's just speculation of course.

The Rohan horses were the best in ME, and nothing Sauron could breed himself would equal them.

Indeed. He not only equalled them, he exceed them by breeding flying critters and propelling his 9ish errand boys into the age of flight.

So why all the trouble when he could just as easy steal ready-made horses,

Indeed why all the theft when you only need perhaps 10 horses to field and 20 or so in reserve? Stealing 20 or 30 horses would hardly be that conspicuous among the 10s of 1000s of horses the Rohirrim had. He obvioulsy stole FAR more than 10 or 20 horses and kept on doing it to the point of being conspicuous - why all the trouble of stealing so many w/ no obvious or apparent need? Besides depending on theft vs a self sustaining breeding program is a notable strategic error.

In fact in the books they only lost those 9 at the Ford and possibly one at the gates of Gondor or the Black Gate. The 9 were replaced by winged critters.

Also Sauron needed them fast, and starting a breeding program would have cost too much time.

Really? A horse reaches physical maturity in 1-2 years. His 'nine' had been known as "riders" for eons. Clearly they had experience maintaining a stable for those riders over the centuries.

Sauron could find other uses for the them, e.g. for fast communication or something.

Perhaps. Thus my question...

I would think an initial breeding program needed to be seeded - the black was already a cinch. But further breeding may have yielded traits making them more tolerant of heinous passengers. But at that point you need not steel more no...?

Who else would have ridden them - Orcs? Other men besides the 9 and Mouth? Besides he'd had an R&D program of some sort to develop those flying critters - much faster than any horse - yes even, SHadow I suspect. That suggests he could indeed creatively develop modify or fine-tune creatures to his ends. Horses would hardly require that much creativity to simply maintain the breed.

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HLGStrider - those are potential explanations - I always got the impression that trolls and certain classes of orcs did the grunt work - but yes, some sort of beasts of burden were likely pressed into service as well.

They could have used them as barter w/ their allies but then they never lacked for coinage and they always chose the black ones.

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YayGollum - I don't see anything that really suggests cruelty to the point of having high attrition. There's no mention for example of the 9 riders bringing extra replacement mounts w/ them. THey always seem to be presented as one rider, one horse even in the most far-off places.

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Here's a much more sinister thought... food for orcs? Again, the color wouldn't have mattered but just a thought...

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To counter the age old question of why didn't the eagles just fly a ringbearer over the cracks of doom for a quick pop-up bombing run w/ the ring package ... Why couldn't Sauron have kicked his flying creature program into high gear just a few months sooner or even a year - he could have covered more territory much quicker, closed in on the Shire sooner and been done w/ it? Doubtless the same answer applies to both eagles and winged Nazgul

thanks,
-T

 

[HLGStrider]

That last question I think I have a fairly for sure answer to. . .

He was hiding them.

The Nazgul were spoken of as "Disguised as Riders in black" unless I am getting that from the movie and not the books. I hope I haven't sunk to that level.

Anyway, a big flying monster would have been noticed in Hobbiton. The riders in black were noticed but explained away. It was strange but not inexplicable.

It would be like a spy wearing an unconcealed weapon.

 

[YayGollum]

Did I talk about the Nazgul bringing replacement horses around with them? Didn't mean to. oh well. I forget what made me think that those horses were dying early, but I didn't make the thing up. oh well. For some crazy reason, I'm thinking that having to transport evil around isn't very healthy. Living in stables made by evil. Who knows what they were fed by evil? Yikes! Anyways, one big reason for stealing the things could just be because they're evil.

 

[HLGStrider]

They lost some horses in the ford when Elrond called down the flood, but that is the only verified loss. . .and they were rehorsed with beasts after that, not horses.

Perhaps they were simply trying to weaken Rohan. Is that a possibity? There was no way they would get them as their allies, but they could considerably weaken them. . .maybe to the point where they would bend rather than break, surrendering.

 

[YayGollum]

Sure, maybe black horses were some of the best those guys had.

 

[HLGStrider]

I always thought that was purely symbolic. . .and if there are enough horses of all colors, might as well pick the symbolic one. I always try to do things in nines or threes and pick out blue over other colors for luck.

 

[YayGollum]

Got it. Yes. Symbolism. "We are evil people so we are stealing your black horses because black is associated with evil a lot." Makes all kinds of sense to me.

 

[HLGStrider]

Just a thought. . .

Simply because a calvary wasn't mentioned didn't mean it didn't exist.

As mentioned, there were troups of men as well as Orcs, and I don't know how hardy these men were. To travel great distances fast, a calvary would be much more efficient than infantry. This is true for men, but not for Orcs.

 

[YayGollum]

Uh, huh. But I don't remember a big and scary cavalry in that War of the Ring thing. Unless you count a few mumaks. If there was a lot of black horses stolen from those Rohan people just for every little human hanging out with Sauron, I would think that it would have been mentioned. oh well. I like the idea of the orcs stealing them for food.

 

[HLGStrider]

I didn't say a huge calvary. I don't know how many horses they were stealing, but I'm assuming there were thousands of men fighting for Sauron. Only giving a horse to the generals would take a few. They only used a few Mumaks. Why go so huge when you could use a horse?

 

[YayGollum]

Because bigger is better? oh well. Got it. Sounds like just a bunch of crazy ideas being tossed around. I've never seen Tolkien say anything like ---> "The orcs stole the horses because of this crazy reason." *hides*

 

[Brytta]

pgt asked:

Originally posted by Niniel
the Rohirrim where better horses than Suaron himself could have bred?


Were they?

According to Gandalf they were. From The Council of Elrond:

And I was glad, for in the Riddermark of Rohan the Rohirrim, the Horse-lords, dwell, and there are no horses like those that are bred in that great vale between the Misty Mountains and the White.

As to whither the Rohirrim payed tribute in horses to Sauron, none other than Gwaihir the Wing Lord repeats the rumor, but Éomer has this to say in The Riders of Rohan:

'Then you do not pay tribute to Sauron?' said Gimli.

'We do not and we never have.' said Éomer with a flash of his eyes; 'though it comes to my ears that that lie has been told. Some years ago the Lord of the Black Land wished to purchase horses of us at great price, but we refused him. for he puts beasts to evil use. Then he sent plundering Orcs, and they carry off what they can, choosing always the black horses: few of these are now left. For that reason our feud with the Orcs is bitter.

I, for one, trust Éomer's words.

 

[Beleg]

I can think of one or two reasons.

Firstly since the Royal line of "Meras" belonged to Valinor, (or Eressa? But presumbly to Eldamar)brought by Noldo(Perhaps by Feanor on his landing at Losgar?) the other horses they had might have some ancestors of Valinorian origin, since the people of these Area's were quite akin to Dunedain and Clan of Bor had some of its people left behind in Eridor and Rhovinion, and they might have transferred some of the horses Feanor? probably game them, It says somewhere in GA, Morgoth Ring, HOME that Feanor supplied the tribes of Swarthy Men and Late Comers with lot of gear and armour and presubmble Horses and other beasts of riding and burden.
If their Sires were Valinorian then they would naturally be better then the Local ME breed, since ME's spring and slumber period didn't last much long due to the interfearence of Morgoth.

And perhaps the upper Vales of Anduin had rich and rolling grass plains principally appropriate for Beasts growth, and it is said that "Horses were wild and many in the Upper Vales of Anduin at that time." Perhaps they didn't get better breed of horses from Harad, Rhun or Nurin.

And I think Sauron prefered black Horses because of its symbolic attachment with darkness and because the servants of the evil prefer dark color's rahter then cheery, pale ones. The other reasons explained by HLGStridder and pgt : (Potter, Granger, Tolkien? J/K) are quite logical too...

 

[HLGStrider]

Gracias. . .Tis good to be logical for once.

 

[pgt]

I agree - had there been a mounted Mordorian contingent (not an ally from elsewhere) - it would have played some sort of role and been worthy of mention.

I consider the black color merely incidental - it's really not central to the question - which dealt more w/ the number of horses stolen and for what purposes.

Beyond food for Orcs another possible use may be as barter w/ the East or South...? But neither of these examples would require black horses. The fact that black horse were selected suggests are more personal or specific usage.


---

Brytta,

I think Gandalf's words are a bit blustery here. Afterall folks can argue the merits of Arabians to American Quarterhorses to Thorobreds till the cows come home. Folks can argue horse bred in Kentucky to those from S. Texas 'till pigs fly. The intended purpose is important and for the purposes of Mordor, the ones they used were probably the best for their given application.

The bottom line is that the few examples of Mordor horses we have (which I believe are of or somewhat of Rohirrim stock) can travel both FAR and FAST. I don't believe these are secondrate horses by any stretch. If there is a difference as to quality w/ Rohirrim horses - it's a fine line at best.

Nobody ever said that Rohan sold horses. The fact that virtually add the black ones had dwindled verifies my suspicion - they stole a LOT - far and away more than was needed to mount 9 riders, a mouth a keep a stable of backups.

All those black horses and no mounted contingent - thus the enigma.

thanks all for great responses!
-T

 

[HLGStrider]

I think they WERE better. There is somewhere mention of them being descendants of a great stock, I think.