Would 👁️Sauron have fallen at any point if the Ring was destroyed?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

We know for certain that he'd have fallen AFTER his defeat at the Battle of the Last Alliance (can't recall the name), as they said Isildur could have and should have destroyed the Ring right then.

But would Sauron have fallen even back in the Second Age if, by some chance, the Numenoreans hadn't been so corrupted, and, when they'd captured Sauron, they'd found his Ring and destroyed it, would it have killed him then back when he had a fair form, or was it only after he lost his first body that he was destroyable by the destruction of the Ring?

Or, more still, was he only destroyable after being "destroyed" by the Last Alliance?

 

[Deleted member 12094]

I see no reason why it wouldn't be so in the Second Age, ever since the One Ring was made. The whole point is hat Sauron had placed so much of his own power into the Ring, that the destruction of the Ring would mean Sauron's undoing too:

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency.​

When King Tar-Calion of Númenor took him as a hostage, I assume that the king ignored the existence of the Ring and that Sauron left it in Mordor. That would explain why the question how to destroy the Ring did not come up any earlier in the Second Age.

 

[Aldarion]

Unlikely. I believe it to be the consequence of the Fall of Numenor - notice that Tolkien points out how Sauron's body was destroyed in the Fall and he was never able to take on a fair form again. In my view, Sauron had lost his body, and possibly a portion of his power inherent in it, in the Sinking of Numenor. And whether he had retained portion of power that was inherent to his body or not, after the Fall it was the Ring that was his connection to the material world. Now, he apparently did reconstruct his body - Gollum say that he has "only nine fingers on his hand" - but that would have been done through the Ring.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

So if Sauron had never made the Ring, he would have "died" when Numenor sunk?

 

[Miguel]

So if Sauron had never made the Ring, he would have "died" when Numenor sunk?

He couldn't have rebuilt his body without it, i think.

 

[Alcuin]

[W]ould Sauron have fallen even back in the Second Age if, by some chance, the Numenoreans hadn't been so corrupted, and, when they'd captured Sauron, they'd found his Ring and destroyed it, would it have killed him then back when he had a fair form, or was it only after he lost his first body that he was destroyable by the destruction of the Ring?

Yes, Sauron would have been vanquished – not destroyed, but rendered permanently weak and impotent – at any time after making his Ruling Ring if that Ring were destroyed. For this conclusion we have Tolkien’s own words from The Letters of JRR Tolkien. First, from Letter 131 (the longest in the book; the rest of the letter is printed in Reader’s Companion):

[S]ecretly … Sauron made … the Ruling Ring … so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, … and in the end could utterly enslave them. ...

But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, … he was not “diminished”. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could … challenge Sauron, … and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced… There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron’s own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. … Also so great was the Ring’s power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.

And again, from Letter 200:

…Sauron appeared in [the form and likeness of Elves and Men]. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was “real”, that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gil-galad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the “will” or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear “mythologically” in the present book.

It is often overlooked that Sauron was unhoused not twice but three times: at the end when Gollum fell with the Ring into the Crack of Doom; when Isildur cut the Ring from his finger after Gil-galad and Elendil stunned Sauron; and when Númenor was destroyed. After his first avatar’s destruction in Númenor, Sauron could no longer assume a pleasing form, but one more akin to that of a balrog: Tolkien also describes Sauron’s appearance in Letters.

I believe it to be the consequence of the Fall of Numenor - notice that Tolkien points out how Sauron's body was destroyed in the Fall and he was never able to take on a fair form again. In my view, Sauron had lost his body, and possibly a portion of his power inherent in it, in the Sinking of Numenor. And whether he had retained portion of power that was inherent to his body or not, after the Fall it was the Ring that was his connection to the material world. Now, he apparently did reconstruct his body - Gollum say that he has "only nine fingers on his hand" - but that would have been done through the Ring.

I don’t know that Sauron lost any power: retaining his power was a subsidiary purpose (or effect) of the Ring. I suspect his inability to assume any fair form once again was a result of his profound wickedness (but see Tolkien’s comment that “each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the ‘will’ or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination” in the previous citation), particularly the insolence he showed to the Valar and especially his denunciation of Eru to the Númenóreans: as Tolkien put it (in Morgoth’s Ring, “Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion”),

Sauron was not a “sincere” atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda). ... To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. ... Sauron’s whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans...

That he could not form his missing finger, the one Isildur cut off, seems to me more mythological: the wounded (evil) spirit cannot conceal his injury, the sign of his defeat.

 

[Miguel]

(but see Tolkien’s comment that “each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the ‘will’ or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination” in the previous citation), particularly the insolence he showed to the Valar and especially his denunciation of Eru to the Númenóreans

Is it the same case as when the Morgoth slew the trees?.

For he was yet as one of the Valar, and could change his form, or walk unclad, as could his brethren; though that power he was soon to lose for ever.

This still has me puzzled:

But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildórien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War

Hildórien:

Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed, he said. 'The world is full of marvelous riches which knowledge can unlock

Then we looked and lo! he was clad in raiment that shone like silver and gold, and he had a crown on his head, and gems in his hair. 'If ye wish to be like me,' he said, 'I will teach you.'

'I am the Giver of Gifts, he said; and the gifts shall never fail as long as ye trust me.'

All that he taught seemed good, for he had great knowledge. But ever more and more he would speak of the Dark. 'Greatest of all is the Dark,' he said, 'for It has no bounds. I came out of the Dark but I am Its master. For I have made Light. I made the Sun and the Moon and the countless stars. I will protect you from the Dark, which else would devour you.'

Then we spoke of the Voice (Eru). But his face became terrible; for he was angry. 'Fools!' he said. 'That was the Voice of the Dark. It wishes to keep you from me; for it is hungry for you.'

Then he went away, and we did not see him for a long time, and without his gifts we were poor. And there came a day when suddenly the Sun's light began to fail, until it was blotted out and a great shadow fell on the world; and all the beasts and birds were afraid. Then he came again, walking through the shadow like a bright fire.

Morgoth did indeed come to Men, but, was he manifesting himself to them using dreams and visions here?. He could not change form anymore or walk invisible at this point.

 

[Alcuin]

Morgoth did indeed come to Men, but, was he manifesting himself to them using dreams and visions here?. He could not change form anymore or walk invisible at this point.

In Morgoth’s Ring, in the essay “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion”, part (ii), Tolkien writes,

Melkor “incarnated” himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the … physical matter of Arda. … A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all “matter” was likely to have a “Melkor ingredient”, and those who had bodies, nourished by the [physical matter] of Arda, had … a tendency … towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.

But in this way Morgoth lost … the greater part of his original … powers…, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. For this reason he had to be fought, mainly by physical force, and enormous material ruin was a probable consequence of any direct combat with him… This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth. … The whole of “Middle-earth” was Morgoth’s Ring… [T]he final eradication of Sauron … was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the “matter” of Arda. Sauron’s power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth’s power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such “magic” and other evils as Sauron practiced with it and upon it.)

Though Morgoth eventually lost his ability to transform his physical being, he could still disguise himself. It sounds as if his appearance to Men in Hildórien was in such a disguise. Remember Gandalf’s warning to Gimli: “Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?” If Saruman, an embodied Maia, could achieve this, surely Melkor Morgoth could as well.

 

[Miguel]

In Morgoth’s Ring, in the essay “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion”, part (ii), Tolkien writes,

Though Morgoth eventually lost his ability to transform his physical being, he could still disguise himself. It sounds as if his appearance to Men in Hildórien was in such a disguise. Remember Gandalf’s warning to Gimli: “Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?” If Saruman, an embodied Maia, could achieve this, surely Melkor Morgoth could as well.

That makes sense, i had no idea about Gandalf's warning to Gimli, still, it's confusing. I do love that things remain unclear but this whole thing seems unclear to me in an inconsistent way.

What was the point of this then?:

though that power he was soon to lose for ever.

I think this implied that he could not take a fair form more than anything else. However, he could disguise/move himself 'under shadow as he travelled to Hildórien. I think he was kind of "around" but didn't approach them physically, rather tricky.

There were also servants left in there after he went back to Dor-Daedeloth. Who were those servants- demons he brought from Angband, Atani who became servants or both?.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Is it the same case as when the Morgoth slew the trees?.



This still has me puzzled:



Hildórien:







Morgoth did indeed come to Men, but, was he manifesting himself to them using dreams and visions here?. He could not change form anymore or walk invisible at this point.

Melkor is another being of interest. Despite being a Valar, it does not appear that he was ever fully able to heal his leg wound that he got in his fight with that Elf Lord guy.

Whether this inability to heal is only limited to evil Maia and Vala is unknown, though. The only good Mair I can think of that was hurt seriously enough was Gandalf and he was resurrected and didn't appear to have any lasting harm, save that he had trouble remembering being "Gandalf the Grey".

 

[Miguel]

Melkor is another being of interest. Despite being a Valar, it does not appear that he was ever fully able to heal his leg wound that he got in his fight with that Elf Lord guy.

Whether this inability to heal is only limited to evil Maia and Vala is unknown, though.

A byproduct of becoming permanently incarnate, his body became a prison.

I would imagine Mandos sending words such as this to Melko's thought:

(1:27)