Your theories on how the 🧌trolls got Glamdring and Orkrist?

[Copia]

I am sure this one has been on everyones mind, and it has been on mine for many years.

It is actually insane how three very stupid trolls had Orkrist, and maybe the most famouse swords of all, Glamdring in their possesion.
As everyone knows Glamdring used to belong to Turgon King of Gondolin, High King of the Noldors.

I mean all the events and everything that needed to happen for these three imbeciles to get a hold hos these swords... Its mindblowing to me. And I dont have a theory at all.
Its so weird how it was not in Elronds possesion.
Would be fun to see if someone actually had som theories on this.

 

[Ent]

Well, since you asked...
You see... Tolkien had a thought. He decided that the group needed just a little something somehow, that would be of concern to the Orcs, as the Orcs were a concern to them. Of themselves, they just really aren't a very scary bunch.

SO... Tolkien, trying to figure out how in the world to get some 'weapons of power' into the groups hands, concocted some trolls, a cave, and a Troll Hoard.
Then... he set pen to paper and... pow. Some advantages were conveyed to the group.

And let's face it... between Glamdring, Orkrist and Sting, Sting was by far the bigger character in the plot lines, and far the most powerful of the three.

I'm sorry, I do know your question is a serious one. But I too have never been able to give it a plausible answer. Alternatively, almost any answer given would be plausible, since there are neither foundation, nor details, from which to draw conclusions.

But you set me a nice little research project... would there be any reason Elrond would, or could, have had them? I would not have suspected so... but I've no foundation for that at present. There is just nothing known about where they were in their last battles, who carried them, how they came to be 'lost', how they might have been 'found', etc., that eventually some troll or other could have found them, or eaten their carrier(s), etc.

And of course we have no background history of the trolls doomed to becoming stoneware, either.

As Sherlock Holmes would say: "it is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment."

An interesting puzzle. I hand it to our Squint-eyed Southerner, Chief Cellrog from the Great Halls of Speculation - and contentedly do so I must admit.

 

[arivista]

Yeah, honestly, Glamdring in the troll cave does not make much sense.

But as far as its history might go, most likely path seems to me this:

Since it was Turgon‘s weapon, he probably fought with it during the Fall of Gondolin. After he died, it was probably taken by Morgoth’s armies. I find it unlikely Tuor or someone else would be able to take it before the enemies could, they were too busy fleeing for their lives. And it makes sense for Morgoth’s servants to take everything they found upon Turgon, whom Morgoth feared the most of all Eldar. It is a proof of his death, for once, and a symbol of his (at least seeming) total destruction.

So I take it Glamdring was held in Thangorodrim, and was later retrieved by the armies of Valar after the War of Wrath.

But as for what might have happened with it afterwards, I am at a loss. Since it belonged tu Turgon, the line of heritage should go through Idril and Eärendil to Elrond and Elros. Elros had Aranrúth from Thingol, so I guess he would not get a second equally famous sword. And since Glamdring obviously wasn’t lost int the Drowning of Númenor, it is very reasonable to assume Glamdring was never brought there. Yes, the kings of Númenor held Aranrúth, but if Númenoreans had Glamdring as well, I think it would pass at least to the Lords of Andúnië. But it didn’t, because they had Narsil, which was (from perspective of First Age) less important/famous sword than Glamdring. If Glamdring was ever on Númenor, and was saved by Elendil, I think he would have that, and not Narsil.

So theoretically it should have gone to Elrond, but it creates problems of its own. If that is the case, you might ask how he ever lost it (wouldn't he be extra careful with such an important heirloom?), and secondly, why wouldn’t he claim it from Gandalf after it was found again. Or at least mention it, if we assume he just generously let him have it. I can offer no other (at least semi-reasonable) speculation here.

 

[Radaghast]

And let's face it... between Glamdring, Orkrist and Sting, Sting was by far the bigger character in the plot lines, and far the most powerful of the three.

How do you figure?

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I am sure this one has been on everyones mind, and it has been on mine for many years.

It is actually insane how three very stupid trolls had Orkrist, and maybe the most famouse swords of all, Glamdring in their possesion.
As everyone knows Glamdring used to belong to Turgon King of Gondolin, High King of the Noldors.

I mean all the events and everything that needed to happen for these three imbeciles to get a hold hos these swords... Its mindblowing to me. And I dont have a theory at all.
Its so weird how it was not in Elronds possesion.
Would be fun to see if someone actually had som theories on this.

Hmm... Very good question.

To me, I would think that perhaps it was passed down for many years, and then someone who owned it was taken down by the Trolls, or it was stolen from the Kingdom, and then the one who stole it or whoever inherited it after, was taken down by Trolls, and the Trollshaws kept these items until they were taken.

 

[Ent]

How do you figure?

I will reply to this after work...need a little time to write it out.
It's clearly by far the bigger character in the plot lines, as it appears and is mentioned over 3 times more frequently than the others.
The 'bigger power' is a matter of definition of 'power' which I'll go into later.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I will reply to this after work...need a little time to write it out.
It's clearly by far the bigger character in the plot lines, as it appears and is mentioned over 3 times more frequently than the others.
The 'bigger power' is a matter of definition of 'power' which I'll go into later.

I would be curious to this also-- I have always thought that it may be Glamdring. In The Lord of the Rings, Sting is indeed by far the most used and also the most of shown Power, but throughout Tolkien's books of Middle-Earth, I am not certain.

 

[Ent]

I would be curious to this also-- I have always thought that it may be Glamdring. In The Lord of the Rings, Sting is indeed by far the most used and also the most of shown Power, but throughout Tolkien's books of Middle-Earth, I am not certain.

Good. The response will come.
In LoTR Sting is mentioned 43 times, Glamdring olny 9. Orcrist, is of course, mentioned only once and is buried with Thorin.
In TH, Sting is mentioned 12 times, Glamdring only 3.

So Sting is mentioned almost 5 times more frequently than Glamdring. Clearly the 'center stage player'.

Again, we'll discuss the 'power' issue later... they being both of Elven make and imbued with Elven powers, mostly shown by their ability to "shine in the presence of Orcs" (which is mentioned of Glamdring also in Moria), one wonders what other power either of them actually has??
It would seem their "inherent" power is equal. Anything else regarding their individual power is speculation.

Thus, we must turn to the other things that are included in the concepts of 'power' with regard to the two.

More later...

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I have no argument that it is the most-mentioned. However I am more curious upon the 'power' element, and I will await your response gladly.

 

[Radaghast]

All three are Elven swords of exceptional make that glow blue when orcs are nearby. I don't think they have any other powers.

As far as use, Glamdring is instrumental in defeating the Balrog, first in shattering its flame sword, then being used to hew at it as Gandalf chases it through the underground tunnels to the top of Celebdil. After Gandalf is brought back from death there is no mention of it being used again, but that does not diminish its previous use.

As for Orcrist, it doesn't ever really get a chance for much glory, that we know of, except that it was obviously used in the goblin mines and the Battle of the Five Armies.

 

[Elthir]

“I could not say,” said Elrondthir, “but one may guess that your these trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some hold in the mountains."

 

[Olorgando]

I just re-read the part in TH, chapter 3 "A Sort Rest", where Elrond translates the runes on Orcrist and Glamdring:

"... This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!"

Erm ... yes ... that king of Gondolin, Turgon, was Elrond's great-grandfather (father's mother's father) ...
My guess is that while JRRT inserted some crumbs from his unpublished legendarium, he didn't want to go into much detail. There are several swords mentioned in his "Silmarillion" writings, but I'm not sure that Glamdring is before he introduced it into TH.

 

[Radaghast]

Yeah, that is basically my guess too. Tolkien used the name Gondolin before he had any hopes that his other stories would be published or that The Hobbit would become part of that universe; almost as a larf. I have never seen the first edition of The Hobbit but maybe that word isn't even in that edition?

Besides the curiosity of the swords being in the troll cave, there is also the matter of the orcs of Moria being able to recognize them over 6,000 years after the Fall of Gondolin 😆 (to say nothing of the fact that Gondolin is at least a hundred miles away and under water).

There is really no good way to explain that, I think, so perhaps the best thing to do is to not try 😁

 

[Ent]

All three are Elven swords of exceptional make that glow blue when orcs are nearby. I don't think they have any other powers.

As far as use, Glamdring is instrumental in defeating the Balrog, first in shattering its flame sword, then being used to hew at it as Gandalf chases it through the underground tunnels to the top of Celebdil. After Gandalf is brought back from death there is no mention of it being used again, but that does not diminish its previous use.

As for Orcrist, it doesn't ever really get a chance for much glory, that we know of, except that it was obviously used in the goblin mines and the Battle of the Five Armies.

And in terms of "power" in the sense of what can it intrinsically DO, this is why I maintain they all 3 bear the same "power" "intrinsically". That is, what power do they have "in and of and out from themselves alone." Which is the immediate question at hand.

(Though I cannot find anywhere where Orcrist is said to be able to glow, myself...so for now, such is 'speculation' for S-eS to guard in the Great Halls. It is a VIABLE speculation, but without it being stated, it is nonetheless speculation. Else all Elvish made swords must be speculated to glow. Something I"m not sure we have a basis for.)

Thus we look to what other things are called up with the use of the word "power".
The swords did not "gain any added power" from the one who bore them. Their power is their power. The wieldeer may make a difference... but that has nothing to do with the swords power.

So we must consider what the sword brings to the bearer beyond its inherent sturdiness, inability to grow dull, and in the two cases at least, glow as a warning.

This is the 'power' I will address later.

 

[Olorgando]

(Though I cannot find anywhere where Orcrist is said to be able to glow, myself...so for now, such is 'speculation' for S-eS to guard in the Great Halls. It is a VIABLE speculation, but without it being stated, it is nonetheless speculation. Else all Elvish made swords must be speculated to glow. Something I"m not sure we have a basis for.)

I think I can answer that. Again from TH, chapter 18 "The Return Journey":

"Upon {Thorin's} tomb the Elvenking the laid Orcrist, the elvish sword that had been taken from Thorin in captivity. It is said in songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached, and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by surprise."

 

[Ent]

And in terms of "power" in the sense of what can it intrinsically DO, this is why I maintain they all 3 bear the same "power" "intrinsically". That is, what power do they have "in and of and out from themselves alone." Which is the immediate question at hand.

(Though I cannot find anywhere where Orcrist is said to be able to glow, myself...so for now, such is 'speculation' for S-eS to guard in the Great Halls. It is a VIABLE speculation, but without it being stated, it is nonetheless speculation. Else all Elvish made swords must be speculated to glow. Something I"m not sure we have a basis for.)

Thus we look to what other things are called up with the use of the word "power".
The swords did not "gain any added power" from the one who bore them. Their power is their power. The wieldeer may make a difference... but that has nothing to do with the swords power.

So we must consider what the sword brings to the bearer beyond its inherent sturdiness, inability to grow dull, and in the two cases at least, glow as a warning.

This is the 'power' I will address later.

Yeah, that is basically my guess too. Tolkien used the name Gondolin before he had any hopes that his other stories would be published or that The Hobbit would become part of that universe; almost as a larf. I have never seen the first edition of The Hobbit but maybe that word isn't even in that edition?

Besides the curiosity of the swords being in the troll cave, there is also the matter of the orcs of Moria being able to recognize them over 6,000 years after the Fall of Gondolin 😆 There is really no good way to explain that, I think, so perhaps the best thing to do is to not try 😁

Oh, and in terms of 'intrinsic power' of the swords and the Speculative Halls, I'll just add this at this point so you know my perspectives on these two points:

Yes, it is written that Sting glowed blue, while Glamdring glowed white. But I do not think we can associate any difference in 'intrinsic power' with their colors of glow. The only purpose mentioned was that they glowed when Orcs were about.

As to Glamdring being used by Gandalf to poke holes in the Balrog, I don't think we can attribute any special power to that other than its sharpness and inability to dull. Attributes Sting also had.

At the same time, Sting punched a hole in Shelob, something other swords could not do.

We know many Balrogs were slain before with Elvish weaponry... and we can't assume they were all even as well made as Orcrist and Glamdring.

So again: intrinsic power of 2 of the 3: Sting and Glamdring are equal. Orcrist, potentially so.

On we go to 'power of other kinds' (later).

I think I can answer that. Again from TH, chapter 18 "The Return Journey":

"Upon {Thorin's} tomb the Elvenking the laid Orcrist, the elvish sword that had been taken from Thorin in captivity. It is said in songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached, and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by surprise."

Nice catch.
This could actually mean Orcrist DID have the greatest power intrinsically... if we extend "foes" to include things beyond "Orcs." Sting only glowed in the presence of Orcs, and Glamdring is never said to glow in other than Orc presence either. (Yes I know, it could be speculated that the reason for its glowing in Moria alongside Sting isn't because of the Orcs.. but is because of the cave troll or even the balrog deep someplace within... but given that it and Sting are mentioned as glowing at the same time, the implication is that it is for the same reason and not for an unrevealed one.)

 

[Radaghast]

As to Glamdring being used by Gandalf to poke holes in the Balrog, I don't think we can attribute any special power to that other than its sharpness and inability to dull. Attributes Sting also had.

I never did. I just said they're well-made, i.e. very durable. Glamdring shattered the Balrog's sword into "molten fragments" suggesting the demon's weapon was no mere toy. Also, Glamdring was none the worse for wear.

At the same time, Sting punched a hole in Shelob, something other swords could not do.

The power for that impalement was supplied by Shelob herself. Otherwise, Sam would have no hope of piercing her hide:

But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Túrin wield it. She yielded to the stroke, and then heaved up the great bag of her belly high above Sam’s head. Poison frothed and bubbled from the wound. Now splaying her legs she drove her huge bulk down on him again. Too soon. For Sam still stood upon his feet, and dropping his own sword, with both hands he held the elven-blade point upwards, fending off that ghastly roof; and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior’s hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground.

• "The Choices of Master Samwise"

 

[Elthir]

"Upon {Thorin's} tomb the Elvenking the laid Orcrist, the elvish sword that had been taken from Thorin in captivity. It is said in songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached, and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by surprise."

Yes Gando! Which I think fits well with the description of Beater and Biter in Over Hill And Under Hill,
in which the goblins turn a corner and find both swords shining "cold and bright" right in their astonished eyes.

The goblins had torches, but I don't take this as a matter of reflection, and in any case . . . what you said!

🐾

 

[Ent]

Great, new details being added. Well done and thanks.
The point remains that they all had the same 'intrinsic power' - now that we know for sure Orcrist AT LEAST glowed too, in the presence of Orcs (and other foes?!)

So they're all intrinsically equal in power, or Orcrist may top the list.

What other kinds of power are there that these swords bring, that aren't necessarily "intrinsic unto themselves" ??

That still be comes the remaining question - all sprung from my comment that Sting had the most power of them all. (Which may or may not prove true in the end... but without considering the other question at hand, it still holds for me... unless I decide Orcrist indeed takes the cake and I'll retract it now. 😀)

Of course... another alternative is to say the swords simply have no power at all.
Unless they are being wielded by someone, whatever they have simply lays there and does nothing.
(Even if it glows. If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?)

In which case again, the swords still all bear the same level of "intrinsic" power - none.

Yet they still have a power that has not been considered... which has become intrinsic to them all.
It is here (among other areas) that we need to consider and measure their power.

Thwack... into your courts.

 

[arivista]

It almost seems to me Glamdring was used by other warriors after Turgon and before Gandalf, because Turgon himself really didn't fight that much with orcs. So how did it get such a recognition as Beater?

Tolkiengateway writes this, but I find it somewhat difficult to believe:

The name most likely originated in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, where it is said that Turgon "hewed his way to the side of his brother".

Does one battle (losing battle, on top of that) really give name to a sword that is well-remembered for millenia? Kind of doubtful...

But on the other hand, Orcrist is specifically said to get its goblin name when Gondolin still stood:

They knew the sword at once. It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when the fair elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did battle before their walls. They had called it Orcrist, Goblin-cleaver, but the goblins called it simply Biter. They hated it and hated worse any one that carried it.

So even Beater might have gotten famous just by Turgon's war exploits. But it is not entirely satisfactory to me.