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Of Celebrimbor.....

Christopher Tolkien summarizes what his father said about Celebrimbor in various writings in note 7 to "Of Dwarves and Men", The Peoples of Middle-earth.

To summarize, first:
... he was of Noldorin origin and one of the survivors of Gondolin where he had been one of Turgon's greatest artificers.
He so apears in the text The Elessar, but Tolkien wrote a note on it that it would be better to 'make him a descendant of Fëanor".

Accordingly in the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, in the Tale of Years of the Second Age, Tolkien added the sentence: 'Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsmen; he was descended from Fëanor.'

On one of his own copies of the book, after it was printed, Tolkien jotted down some speculations as to Celebrimbor's exact ancestry, where he writes that it "seems probable that Celebrinbaur (silverfisted, > Celebrimbor) was the son of Curufin" and relates the version from which Christopher Tolkien obtained the information for two passages in the published Silmarillion.

But in a later passage written in 1968 Celebrimbor becomes instead one of the Teleri who accompanied Celeborn to Middle-earth. (In this version Celeborn was one of the Teleri, not one of the Sindar, and he and Galadriel and three Teleri sailed to Middle-earth in Celeborn's own ship directly following the slaughter at the Havens.)

Finally, in "Of Dwarves and Men", written in 1969 or later, Celebrimbor becomes one of the Sindar, descended from Daeron.

But Christopher Tolkien thinks that if his father had remembered that he had called Celebrimbor a descendant of Fëanor in The Lord of the Rings he would have felt himself bound by it, and not made the later changes.
 
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thats kinda weird, but thanks alot for putting all that time into answering my question.
 
Yay, necromancy. Thank you @Elthir. Always a pleasure.
 
I've been looking at [the UT PARAPHRASE text] Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn again, and comparing it to the "new" NOME version . . .

. . . trying to see if I'll change my mind about anything in it [given my recent change of mind with respect to Galadriel's history in Beleriand].
 
Minor niggle: this Tolkienian note connects to the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn rather.

According to Of Dwarves And Men note 7 anyway, and the paraphrased version of Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn as published in Unfinished Tales.
Yep, the Elessar text is not modified to turn the earlier variant Celebrimbor of Gondolin (who loved Galadriel) into the Celebrimbor of Feanorean descent (unlike with Concerning).
I am of late seeing people (including youtube 'experts') trying to claim these are the same and Feanorean Celebrimbor went to Gondolin after Nargothrond, and fell in love with his (1st half cousin once removed?) Galadriel.
With no real authority or evidence beyond the name.
 
( . . .) With no real authority or evidence beyond the name.

I've seen this too Tar-E. It burns my toast.

And as I know you know, what we can say about Celebrimbor the Feanorean (compared to Celebrimbor the Jool-smith of Gondolin who falls for Galadriel) is rather: "He [Celebrimbor] later became a great friend of Celeborn and Galadriel." Note 7, Of Dwarves And Men

Also Tar E, do you think I'm reading the NOME version correctly concerning the following point: contrary to the Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn UT Paraphrase, which makes much of Celeborn not passing through Moria, in the NOME text Celeborn and Galadriel leave Eregion c. 1300 and retreat through Moria, and later in the text: "Celeborn and Amroth with Nandor and Dwarves come through Moria to the West."

But a new paragraph begins: "When Celeborn [this name is changed in the NOME paperback to Celebrimbor] heard of onset of Sauron (fearing to keep the Three Rings himself) he sent one to Galadriel in Lorinand by Amroth. Celeborn makes a sortie and breaks out and joins Elrond but cannot get back."

So, so far anyway, I'm assuming (!) that this was enough for Christopher Tolkien to alter the "earlier" NOME scenario [again, Celeborn retreating through Moria] for the UT Paraphrase.

Also, I noticed that Celebrían’s birth is given in the NOME text at c. 300* -- while in the UT Paraphrase there's no number, and her date of birth is said to be "not made definite" -- and although we have a "circa" here in NOME, Amroth's date is also c. 350 in NOME, which is described in the UT Paraphrase as "sometime between the years 350 and 400".

Another tidbit: Nenuial doesn't seem to be mentioned in the NOME text, though it's referred to elsewhere in at least one other NOME text dated 1959.

*in the 1965 text however, Elvish Ages & Numenorean, Celebrían’s birth is in Lindon in "(say) SA 45".
 
Also Tar E, do you think I'm reading the NOME version correctly concerning the following point: contrary to the Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn UT Paraphrase, which makes much of Celeborn not passing through Moria, in the NOME text Celeborn and Galadriel leave Eregion c. 1300 and retreat through Moria, and later in the text: "Celeborn and Amroth with Nandor and Dwarves come through Moria to the West."
"Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor."

"Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away "
UT, Concerning

"Galadriel and Celeborn leave Eregion c. S.A. 1300 and retreat (through Moria) to Lórinand (with many of their non-Noldorin following): they are well received, and teach to the Lindar many things, warning them especially against Sauron."

"Celeborn and Amroth with Nandor and Dwarves come through Moria to the west."
NoMe, Concerning


But a new paragraph begins: "When Celeborn [this name is changed in the NOME paperback to Celebrimbor] heard of onset of Sauron (fearing to keep the Three Rings himself) he sent one to Galadriel in Lorinand by Amroth. Celeborn makes a sortie and breaks out and joins Elrond but cannot get back."
It is supposed to be Celebrimbor. Hostetter noted his error in his errata sheet:
p. 348, l. 4: For “Celeborn” read “Celebrimbor”.


So, so far anyway, I'm assuming (!) that this was enough for Christopher Tolkien to alter the "earlier" NOME scenario [again, Celeborn retreating through Moria] for the UT Paraphrase.

My presumption, barring coming across something from CT saying he changed it (presumably to keep in line with LotR), or Hostteter saying CT changed it, is that it is just variants in the manuscripts. And thus, CT picked the variant most in line with LotR.

Note that in Elvish Ages & Númenórean (ca. 1965), Hostetter writes in Note 15:
"15 This is the text titled Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn that Christopher Tolkien describes and retells at UT:233–40."
As an axplanation to:
"The best story seems to be that outlined under “Galadriel”,[15] in which they take part in the settlement of Eregion, and later of its defence against Sauron."
While the Concerning MS does have Galadriel take part in the settlement, she does not take part in its defence other than (I presume) sending Amroth, as she goes to and remains in Lorien.

There is the later Amroth and Nimrodel part of UT that suggests Galadriel went to Lindon etc. But that is 1969+.

Maybe time to e-mail CFH...
 
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My presumption, barring coming across something from CT saying he changed it (presumably to keep in line with LotR), or Hostteter saying CT changed it, is that it is just variants in the manuscripts.

This makes sense Tar-E, considering there is stuff in the UT Paraphrase that isn't in the NOME version. I looked further into my comparison last night, and this point appears to have weight especially so with respect to the information in notes 10 and 11 to the UT Paraphrase.

In note 10, for example, Christopher Tolkien explains that the text was emended to read "the first White Council", but the NOME version ends relatively soon by comparison, and doesn't even get to any council!

Or a statement like "but they failed to find the strength" being in quotes [UT Paraphrase] which would seem to suggest a Tolkienian quote -- yet this statement is again, not found in the NOME version.

I guess my confusion arose from the editorial commentary, which, to me, seemed to say we had one text with emendations, and earlier I had assumed that all emendations would be noted if I gathered up both presentations -- assuming again that Carl Hostetter did not include certain details that Christopher had already noted [like the revision about the native princes in Lorinand, for example].

But as I say, if such were the case, there should be more text to the NOME version in any case, and as the NOME version doesn't hesitate to illustrate "repetition" [or near repetition] with respect to the earlier sections of the UT Paraphrase, then where's the rest of the text in NOME?

Note that in Elvish Ages & Númenórean (edit for brevity) As an axplanation to: The best story seems to be that outlined under “Galadriel”,[15] in which they take part in the settlement of Eregion, and later of its defence against Sauron." While the Concerning MS does have Galadriel take part in the settlement, she does not take part in its defence other than (I presume) sending Amroth, as she goes to and remains in Lorien.

I've been assuming that [this statement could be taken to mean that] JRRT, while referencing this [now older] text, had forgotten exactly what was said in it, or was even perhaps referring to the story now in his head [1965], even though it didn't sit perfectly with some of what he'd written.

Not only concerning whether or not Galadriel [UT Paraphrase] could be said to take part in the defence of Eregion, but the (to my mind) phrasing difference of "take part in the settlement"
of Eregion -- compared to saying that they "established" the realm of Eregion, and indeed
ruled Eregion!

Take part? That seems a rather notable "part" to me!

The date for Elvish Ages & Numenorean is right at the time Tolkien was working on revisions to the second edition, and it is not long after that Celebrimbor is added to Appendix B as Lord of Eregion, as I know you know.

In other words, Galadriel and Celeborn could indeed take part while Tolkien gave Celebrimbor the Feanorean the greater role: establishing Eregion [the Noldor went there for Mithril after all, according to Appendix B], and ruling there.

That's a bold, red if, I know: neither the publication of Celebrimbor Lord of Eregion, or this "take part" in the settlement of Eregion [EA&N] necessarily means that JRRT had given over the original lordship of Eregion to Celebrimbor, but I think it remains a good question to ask, and there's no additional revisions to The Tale of Years to suggest that Celebrimbor only ruled after Galadriel and Celeborn were ousted by the Jool-smiths.

There's also an interesting statement concerning this back in WPP, but I digress 🐾

Maybe time to e-mail CFH...

CFH sometimes posts over at TORN. I might try to grab his eye over there, if I have the time, and if I have the wit to write a decent enough inquiry there.

Anyway, thanks for the response. Helpful, as always!
 
Not only concerning whether or not Galadriel [UT Paraphrase] could be said to take part in the defence of Eregion, but the (to my mind) phrasing difference of "take part in the settlement"
of Eregion -- compared to saying that they "established" the realm of Eregion, and indeed
ruled Eregion!

Take part? That seems a rather notable "part" to me!
I chuckled a bit when I first read this, with the order of the names and titles):
"Galadriel and Celeborn are regarded as High Lord and Lady of..."


There's also an interesting statement concerning this back in WPP, but I digress 🐾
The 'Lothlorien' and 'Sindarin' notes where G&C found and rule Lorien after the destruction of Eregion?

It is possible that JRRT had that in mind...
CFH sometimes posts over at TORN.
After 23+ years of not having an account at TORN, I decided to register the other month, and I got stuck in a loop.
Something like register>validation>login>validate>validated>login>validation>validated>login>(repeat)...

No great loss.
 
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The 'Lothlorien' and 'Sindarin' notes where G&C found and rule Lorien after the destruction of Eregion?

Those are interesting, but above I was thinking more specifically of the following, from entry yrch:

". . . many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel
and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)
" JRRT Words, Phrases and Passages, PE17

But even if I read it with my Celebrimborian theory in mind, I can't (at least so far) necessarily date this to after Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn!

and I've got to be careful too, considering my recent blindness regarding the NOME Galadriel And Celeborn. CFH describes it as "manuscript drafting and writing in black nib-pen on Oxford College documents dated 1955, to which Tolkien subsequently gave the title "Concerning Galadriel & Celeborn," . . ." Since Tolkien seemed to have given all of it this title, I assumed (again!) that we were being given "all" of it, but this time in JRRT's own words (minus already noted emendations) -- but as I rambled above, that doesn't seem to be the case.

After 23+ years of not having an account at TORN, I decided to register the other month, and I got stuck in a loop. (. . .) No great loss.

Heheh. Can't recall why I signed up there. Probably boredom after some of the other Tolkien forums became less and less active.

Anyway, one last (probably not last) question for you: in CFH's footnote 9 to Silvan Elves And Silvan Elvish, he notes the following: "Thither they returned twice before the Last Alliance" and Carl goes on to say: "in the contemporary History of of Galadriel and Celeborn, upon the revolt in Eregion of the Mirdain at the instigation of Sauron, Galadriel alone passed through Khazad-dum to Lorinand (UT: 237), . . . "

I'm wondering about the word "contemporary" here, as the preceding statement [from a footnote]
is pretty late compared to the scenario that's being recounted here.
 

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