Favourite 🧝elven kindred

[Master of maps]

seems i've brought about a tie between noldor and the teleri.... yay!!!!

 

[Elf of cave]

The Noldor are the greatest.

The Vanyar are just too perfect and too “Holy” - in other words boring. Ingwe seated at the feet of the Valar - what does that leave to imagine?

The Teleri are alright but most of them are too passive, like the elves of Doriath hiding behind the Girdle of Melian.

The Noldor are passionate, fiery, fierce and flawed. The Fëanorians may have done some terrible things, but without the exiled Noldor coming to Middle-earth it would only have been a matter of time before Morgoth would have conquered all of Beleriand and enslaved the Elves and Men, and all of the history that came after would never would have happened.

 

[Confusticated]

Posted by ithrynluin

Looking back...the results are pretty damn surprising. I thought the Noldor would have won an overwhelming majority...

Probably because Noldor fanatics like Inderjit and me had been such loud-mouths around here.

By Elf of cave

...it would only have been a matter of time before Morgoth would have conquered all of Beleriand and enslaved the Elves and Men, and all of the history that came after would never would have happened.

Without the rebellion of the Noldor, would those of Aman continued to sit idle long enough for that to happen? Especially since men would make decent potential soldiers against them.

I wouldn't put it past all of them except Ulmo. An unpleasant thought.

 

[Ithrynluin]

I wouldn't put it past all of them except Ulmo. An unpleasant thought.

I'm not sure I follow. What is the unpleasant thought?

That the Valar would have intervened in Middle-earth matters earlier, had the Noldor never departed there?

 

[Curufin]

The Noldor are the greatest.

Hear, hear!

The Vanyar are just too perfect and too “Holy” - in other words boring. Ingwe seated at the feet of the Valar - what does that leave to imagine?

Well, they did make decent wives for some of the Ñoldor, I suppose.

The Teleri are alright but most of them are too passive, like the elves of Doriath hiding behind the Girdle of Melian.

Or like the Teleri in Aman who never seem to want to do much except sing. And push the Ñoldor off of their ships. Of course, they make good wives for the Ñoldor too.

The Noldor are passionate, fiery, fierce and flawed.

Hear, hear! Add interesting to the list.

The Fëanorians may have done some terrible things

I think I take offense at this.

Especially since it's probably pointed at me and Celegorm.

but without the exiled Noldor coming to Middle-earth it would only have been a matter of time before Morgoth would have conquered all of Beleriand and enslaved the Elves and Men, and all of the history that came after would never would have happened.

Dear-bought shall these songs be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been...

Probably because Noldor fanatics like Inderjit and me had been such loud-mouths around here.

Ñoldor fanatics! Can I join? Can I join!? I've even been known to defend the Kinslaying on occasion...(that was an interesting debate...)

Without the rebellion of the Noldor, would those of Aman continued to sit idle long enough for that to happen? Especially since men would make decent potential soldiers against them.

I think they would have waited longer. They seemed pretty willing to ignore Melkor to me.

 

[Confusticated]

That the Valar would have intervened in Middle-earth matters earlier, had the Noldor never departed there?

No, I was unclear again!

That the Valar would have sat idle long enough for Morgoth to enslave Middle-earth.

Curufin, you defended the kinslaying? I think you've gone farther than anyone I've ever seen. I guess if that isn't a fanatic then no one is! Have you ever defended Feanor's cold reaction to the news that his son was on the burning ship?

I bet you've defended Curufin too... I foresee some lively discussions.

 

[YayGollum]

Oh, come on. I've defended the event called the Kinslaying before. I shall look it up. *grumbles* I defend all kinds of crazy stuff!

Here it is: Slaying of some particular elves is evil? Not really. They were stupid for standing in the way of an especially as well as achingly famously fiery tempered personality. He showed a Herculean amount of restraint in the first place for asking them for their ships instead of just taking them. Do you people think that he was just a whiny as well as spoiled little boy? Well, even if you do, he wasn't. He had the legendary love for a dad that had to be avenged! Lots of creepily righteous fury driving him and some random elf says ---> "Nah. We enjoy uselessly piddling about our tiny island. Waste lots of time making your own boats, why don't you?" That was pretty stupid of him. Poor Feanor snapped.

Only a part of a bunch of fun that I was having in some other thread around here.

 

[Curufin]

.Curufin, you defended the kinslaying? I think you've gone farther than anyone I've ever seen. I guess if that isn't a fanatic then no one is!

Yep. It was quite enjoyable, too. I pretty much did it because I got tired of the 'Ñoldor are evil, Teleri are completely innocent in every way' mindset, so I decided to show that the Teleri aren't completely innocent. They're the ones who started pushing, after all.

Have you ever defended Feanor's cold reaction to the news that his son was on the burning ship?

What was the little baby doing on the ship, anyway? I have, but not quite in that way. I completely believe that Fëanor felt absolutely horrible about this, but at this point was completely incapable of admitting that he was capable of making mistakes. So you get the reaction in the Shibboleth that makes him seem really cold, when actually he was quite grieved.

I bet you've defended Curufin too... I foresee some lively discussions.

Why, of course I have.

Oh, come on. I've defended the event called the Kinslaying before. I shall look it up. *grumbles* I defend all kinds of crazy stuff!

Here it is: Slaying of some particular elves is evil? Not really. They were stupid for standing in the way of an especially as well as achingly famously fiery tempered personality. He showed a Herculean amount of restraint in the first place for asking them for their ships instead of just taking them. Do you people think that he was just a whiny as well as spoiled little boy? Well, even if you do, he wasn't. He had the legendary love for a dad that had to be avenged! Lots of creepily righteous fury driving him and some random elf says ---> "Nah. We enjoy uselessly piddling about our tiny island. Waste lots of time making your own boats, why don't you?" That was pretty stupid of him. Poor Feanor snapped.

Love it!

 

[Elf of cave]

Without the rebellion of the Noldor, would those of Aman continued to sit idle long enough for that to happen? Especially since men would make decent potential soldiers against them.

I wouldn't put it past all of them except Ulmo. An unpleasant thought.

The Green-elves of Ossiriand and Thingol wanted nothing to do with Men and neither would tolerate them in their land. That leaves the Falathrim but they are more sailors than warriors. It was the Noldor that saw the potential of Men and taught them much so that the Men who befriended the Noldor became greater than all others of Mankind.

No the elves of Aman would probably want to help their kindred, but then the damage may already have been done.

I think the Valar (except for Ulmo) would be rather passive. Remember they refused to aid the Men and Elves of Beleriand until someone would come and plead the case of both races, despite the fact that it was only the Noldor they were angry at. What does that say about the Valar..?

Quote:
“The Fëanorians may have done some terrible things”

I think I take offense at this.

Especially since it's probably pointed at me and Celegorm.

I withdraw my statement. The Fëanorians made themselves noticed in ways that can only be describe as unfortunate

 

[Curufin]

I think the Valar (except for Ulmo) would be rather passive. Remember they refused to aid the Men and Elves of Beleriand until someone would come and plead the case of both races, despite the fact that it was only the Noldor they were angry at. What does that say about the Valar..?

I agree. It's not like they needed Eärendil to know what was going on. They knew. They were just able to ignore it until Eärendil made them feel guilty about it. I must say that I don't have a lot of respect for the Valar sometimes...they sometimes seem to make very bad choices (like believing Melkor was reformed...).

I withdraw my statement. The Fëanorians made themselves noticed in ways that can only be describe as unfortunate.

A bit better, I suppose.

 

[Turgon]

I can't really believe that the Valar would just have sat on their bums and done nothing were it not for the Rebellion of the Noldor. Once Melkor had set about his mischief once more the Valar would have had to have done something. I'm not really sure what the Noldor achieved at all in Middle-earth save for giving us a cracking story to read. Had they stayed in Aman and waited for the Valar to give battle to Melkor with the full hosts of the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri, then Melkor would have indeed been payed in full. His power and that of his servants broken for ever.

 

[Curufin]

Respectfully, half-cousin (), I must disagree.

The Valar had many chances to do something about Morgoth once and for all - and they wouldn't do it. They knew he was causing 'mischief' when they called Fëanor before them and learned the extent of his lies. Did they do anything?

No.

Then he destroyed the Trees, killed Finwë, and ruined the bliss of Valinor. Did they do anything?

No.

Then he went to war for hundreds of years with the Elves in Middle-earth - not just the exiled Ñoldor, but the Sindar as well. They had to have known, because Mandos would have been receiving their fëar daily. Did they do anything?

No.

They simply removed Valinor from the 'real' world, and set themselves up a nice, pretty little kingdom where nobody could come and ruin their peace.

I think Fëanor has a very strong point when he says:

'...if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morogth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief.'

I lost a lot of respect for the Valar in their isolationism.

 

[Turgon]

My point though was that had Feanor not rebelled the Valar would have took up arms against Melkor much sooner. The Doom of Mandos put pay for to that - at least until it was played out. It could as easily be argued that Feanor's rebellion was just as much to blame for the suffering in Beleriand as the Valar's inaction. More so as Feanor was the proactive party in this, the Valar the reactive.

Feanor himself says: 'delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief'

Note the word delays, not refuses. How much time was there between the Darkening of Valinor and the speech in Tirion? Time enough to take proper council for such a monumentous event? I say no. And since when has grief been an evil? People need time to grieve and to think lest they rush forward into unthinking action making matters worse, as Feanor did.

I would say it was the Rebellion that delayed the Valar, and it was Feanor who prolonged the war. And the divsions that Feanor created that prevented the Valar attacking Melkor with a mighty host before Melkor dug himself into Angband and routing him and his servants utterly.

Anyway, nice to see a new Feanorian on the boards cousin Curufin. It's been a while since we've had any discussions like this...

Hope I'm not out of practice...

 

[Curufin]

My point though was that had Feanor not rebelled the Valar would have took up arms against Melkor much sooner. The Doom of Mandos put pay for to that - at least until it was played out. It could as easily be argued that Feanor's rebellion was just as much to blame for the suffering in Beleriand as the Valar's inaction. More so as Feanor was the proactive party in this, the Valar the reactive.

Doesn't that strike you as odd, though - that Fëanor was the proactive party? Instead of the ones that could actually win the war? If you look at the power of Fëanor versus the power of the Valar, it seems to me that Fëanor was a great deal braver than the Valar ever thought of being. They could actually have defeated Melkor (and eventually they did), but even knowing this, they sat around and debated and blamed the Ñoldor for their inaction. "Oh, we're not going to go and destroy Melkor, because the Ñoldor need to suffer because they behaved badly! "

If the Valar had acted sooner - like before the trees were destroyed, when they knew Melkor was causing trouble...or perhaps if Manwë had been possessed of a brain and realized that Melkor's repentence was insincere, Fëanor would never have become what he was in the first place, and would still be making pretty trinkets in Valinor and pondering some linguistic text.

As the history stands, I don't blame Fëanor one bit for the way he reacted. He saw his father murdered and his jewels stolen (two things which I believe he conflated into one in his mind), while the Valar did squat. Did they tell him if he came back to Valinor, they'd work something out, and take care of Melkor? No. Did they tell him that they would try to find justice for his father? No. They just threw threats at him and told him that he'd be cursed if he tried to do the right thing - the thing that they were obviously too cowardly to do. I say bravo to Fëanor for trying to get justice, even when the Valar were too busy crying over the trees.

Note the word delays, not refuses. How much time was there between the Darkening of Valinor and the speech in Tirion? Time enough to take proper council for such a monumentous event? I say no.

Perhaps not. But neither did they tell Fëanor that they were even considering doing anything. Like I said above, they just started threatening him. And they didn't have a real good track record of reacting.

And since when has grief been a evil? People need time to grieve and to think lest they rush forward into unthinking action making matters worse, as Feanor did.

If you call what they did making matters worse. I doubt the Edain would think so.

I would say it was the Rebellion that delayed the Valar, and it was Feanor who prolonged the war. And the divsions that Feanor created that prevented the Valar attacking Melkor with a mighty host before Melkor dug himself into Angband and routing him and his servants utterly.

I think these are good excuses that the Valar would have made. The truth is, they could have taken care of this problem long before the Rebellion ever happened, and they didn't. Fëanor, with good reason, had no faith that anything would be done, so he did it himself. Totally understandable and justified.

Anyway, nice to see a new Feanorian on the boards cousin Curufin. It's been a while since we've had any discussions like this...

Yeah, I've noticed there aren't very many of us. Someone has to stick up for our viewpoint once in a while. It seems a bit of a consensus on most boards that we Fëanorians are a bit evil because of all that bunk with Nargothrond...and Lúthien...and Menegroth...and Sirion...but I tell you, We're just misunderstood!.

 

[Confusticated]

The Valar let Sindar, Dwarves, good Noldor who only went into exile for the sake of kinships, and Men die by the thousands just because some Feanorians pissed them off, and we're to believe that suddenly they would care about these people if the Noldor were nicer? No way I'll buy it.

When Melkor strikes the Valar set up their own private stronghold, live in the holy light, then hoard that same light and sit around waiting for the elves to come so they could possess the ones who would follow them into hiding. Then after they do catch Melkor they let him go, okay fine if you want to give him a chance, but when he is seen in close freandship with the Noldor, the clan that just happens to get stirring and becoming distrustful and making weapons, let it occur to you that just maybe Melkor is still pure evil!

Did the Valar say to Feanor: We understand your grief and we too want to beat Melkor to a pulp, let us all take council together? Let us aid you in your war against Morgoth! Let us help for it is through our own error in negligence that this was able to happen? Nothing like it. They gave Feanor no reason to wait!

And the Vanyar were sadly caused to be just like them!

 

[Curufin]

Exactly!

I see the fault as lying far more with the indecisiveness (and perhaps apathy) of the Valar more than the Ñoldor. The Ñoldor reacted perfectly reasonably when pushed as far as they were.

 

[Turgon]

I see the fault as lying far more with the indecisiveness (and perhaps apathy) of the Valar more than the Ñoldor. The Ñoldor reacted perfectly reasonably when pushed as far as they were.

The Noldor acted reasonably? How does this conclusion come about? It was reasonable to shed the blood of innocents in the cause of vengance? And then fall upon your own Kinsmen as an expedient to the same?

Did the Valar say to Feanor: We understand your grief and we too want to beat Melkor to a pulp, let us all take council together? Let us aid you in your war against Morgoth! Let us help for it is through our own error in negligence that this was able to happen? Nothing like it. They gave Feanor no reason to wait!

Did Feanor stay to listen? While the Valar were taking council after this cataclysmic event - Feanor was off to Tirion and on the road in a very short space of time, perhaps less than a day. We are talking about the destruction of the two trees here and a natural order that had lasted for an age.

When Melkor strikes the Valar set up their own private stronghold, live in the holy light, then hoard that same light and sit around waiting for the elves to come so they could possess the ones who would follow them into hiding. Then after they do catch Melkor they let him go, okay fine if you want to give him a chance, but when he is seen in close freandship with the Noldor, the clan that just happens to get stirring and becoming distrustful and making weapons, let it occur to you that just maybe Melkor is still pure evil!

Considering that only the Firstborn had awoken and that Melkor had pretty much devastated Arda - bringing them to Aman was a good move. Or at least it must have seemed so in their minds. As for Melkor after his release, could the Valar very well lock him up again on mere suspicion without him even commiting a crime? We are talking about people here of a goodness incomprehensible to a human mind. As for the Noldor weapons - weapons they must have had in Middle-earth too. Though cold steel might have been something new.

As the history stands, I don't blame Fëanor one bit for the way he reacted. He saw his father murdered and his jewels stolen (two things which I believe he conflated into one in his mind), while the Valar did squat. Did they tell him if he came back to Valinor, they'd work something out, and take care of Melkor? No. Did they tell him that they would try to find justice for his father? No. They just threw threats at him and told him that he'd be cursed if he tried to do the right thing - the thing that they were obviously too cowardly to do. I say bravo to Fëanor for trying to get justice, even when the Valar were too busy crying over the trees.

So the death of one man justifies the slaying of the Teleri? And Feanor's wrath is justified because he lost his jewels while the Valar and not allowed to grieve over the destruction of the Two Trees? Which the Silmarils were a mere reflection of...

 

[Curufin]

The Noldor acted reasonably? How does this conclusion come about? It was reasonable to shed the blood of innocents in the cause of vengance? And then fall upon your own Kinsmen as an expedient to the same?...So the death of one man justifies the slaying of the Teleri? And Feanor's wrath is justified because he lost his jewels while the Valar and not allowed to grieve over the destruction of the Two Trees? Which the Silmarils were a mere reflection of...

Now you're going to get me into the theory I spent months working on in my senior seminar paper...

Fëanor's reaction at the slaying of Finwë, and his seeking of vengeance through vigilante methods, is the normal reaction of a society that has lost faith in the police force, the courts, etc.. When these bodies are felt no longer to be providing fair and timely justice, people will take it on themselves to provide that justice themselves. In my historical area of expertise, Northern Ireland, this has been seen time and time again as paramilitaries such as the IRA or the UVF have taken on the task of policing these areas - either because there is no faith in the police in these areas, or because the police have shown time and time again that they are not unbiased.

This is what happens to Fëanor. He has seen repeatedly how the Valar have punished him while doing nothing to Melkor. He is banished to Formenos - Melkor's part in his actions is completely ignored. He doesn't even get a slap on the wrist. Fëanor sees Melkor forgiven and forgiven while doing grevious harm. How does drawing a sword on your brother in anger (and not even hurting him) compare to what Melkor has done? And yet, it could be argued that Fëanor has actually suffered more for his deeds than Melkor has.

Seeing this to be completely and utterly unfair, Fëanor realizes that he's not going to find justice unless he creates that justice himself. He realizes that nobody is going to take on Melkor but himself. So, in the absence of any reasonably effective justice system, Fëanor has no choice but to do it himself. Therefore, it is the fault of the Valar for not instilling more faith in the Ñoldor that this problem would be taken care of. Their apathy and delay has caused Fëanor and the Ñoldor to question the legitimacy of the state (you can see how Fëanor challenges their authority again and again). This is not a fault of the Ñoldor, but of the sub-par governing methods of the Valar.

There, a political science perspective.

 

[Turgon]

I don't buy it.

Feanor is not a paramilitary. He has a few bad dealings with Valar in which he comes of worse. Pride leads Feanor to these actions, he listens to the lies of Melkor and then draws a sword upon his own brother. It's hardly the same. Come the Darkening of Valinor he doesn't even give the Valar a day to respond before he is off. Your theory doesn't excuse his actions any more than it excuses the IRA or UVA or any other paramilitary group. Your theory might well explain why the IRA or UVA acted the way they did. Feanor's case is entirely different.

 

[Curufin]

I'm not trying to excuse anyone, and certainly not paramilitaries. I'm just trying to show that Fëanor's mindset is the same.

They're not going to do what they're there to do - so I've got to do it myself.