Most upsetting incident in Quenta Silmarillion

[Illuin]

I’m not sure if this subject was polled already sometime in the past, but I’m curious to know what incident was most upsetting to readers of The Silmarillion. I realize I’ve listed quite a few choices, but I wanted to see which choice aroused the most emotion.

 

[Confusticated]

I voted for Finrod's death because it came to mind first, though when I vote for it I am also voting for the fact that his people at Nargothrond abandoned him.

This would have been a good poll to allow multiple choices. When Hurin and Morwen found eachother is one of the worst for me.

The kinslayings were all upsetting, but particularly when Maedhros repenting tried to find the child sons of Doir in the woods of Doriath but was not able to. The death of Fingon and Maglor's casting away of the silmaril to wander alone were sad too. The defeat in Nirnaeth was awfully saddening after the spurt of hope when Turgon came unexpected.

Auta i lome - but it was not so.

 

[YayGollum]

I had to go with Other. If there wasn't an Other, I would have gone with that bit about the Dwarves and elves fighting over the Nauglamir. Mablung, one of the few upstanding citizens that I'm able to admire, died because of that. And, also, a bunch of Dwarves. The most upsetting thing wasn't on the poll, though. I don't know why.

It is ---> The murder of Mim. Mim was cool. Just a little guy, never did anything evil to anybody. Got kicked out of his home for nonconformity. Got kicked out of some unfinished caves by some arrogant elves. Found the superly cool Amon Rudh but had a bunch of human bandits force their way in. It took a while, but he got past his righteous fury of having his home invaded and his livelihood constantly jeopardized, and he started getting friendly towards Turin elfbane. But then, Beleg showed up. Mim was understandably displeased at the sight of some elf. He was forced to deal with that thing lazing about on his furniture, but he continued to gather food for too many mouths. In the same situation as when the bandits caught him, some Orcs forced him to reveal his home again. With his secret out to apparently everybody, he triumphantly made it all the way back to Nargothrond, against plenty of odds. Nobody else could withstand the blight left by Glaurung. He was as close to happy as he'd been in far too long to keep an ordinary sentient sane. Then Hurin showed up. I don't mind Hurin, either, which makes it sadder that he murdered Mim for no good reason. Mim was unarmed and attempting to calm the terminally depressed guy down when Hurin gutted him. Not cool. Very sad. Nobody cares. *sniff* Poor Mim.

I predict that Beleg getting killed will win, though. Ugh.

 

[Illuin]

Hi Nom,

I did think about the multiple choice, but I wanted to make this poll a “gut reaction”; just like yours was. The most disturbing incident for me was Turin accidentally killing Beleg. OUCH! That one really got to me; and it still does!

 

[Illuin]

Hi YayGollum,

Yeah, I have to admit, Mim was dealt a lousy hand . Jealously was indeed his undoing though; he could have chilled out a bit when it came to Turin’s friendship with Beleg. But then again; you know how life goes…the good deeds one does for years (like Mim) are disregarded; but screw up once and!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Turgon]

I voted for 'The Ruin of Doriath by the Sons of Feanor' as it seems the most pointless tragedy in a series of pointless acts of tragedy.

 

[chrysophalax]

I would have to go with Other, since my choice encompasses several upsetting incidents with but one cause...the Birth of Turin.

Absolutely nothing went right for the guy and his family was so well connected that, unfortunately for all those that wished to help him for his father's sake, they took the cuckoo into their midst, so to speak. Thus we have the death of Beleg, the incestuous marriage to Nienor and the untimely death of poor Glaurung, to name but a few of his "accomplishments".

 

[redline2200]

Although I recognize this event was slightly unimportant when contrasted with some of the other options in the poll, I am going to give the stereotypical response and say that the worst part was the accidental slaying of Beleg Cuthalion by Turin.
Certainly some of the other options were much greater travesties, but I remember the first time I read the Sil I felt like someone had punched me in the gut when I read about Beleg's death. The whole story of Turumbar is kinda like that though...

 

[Sagan369]

The most upsetting part to me was Turin's act of incest (repeatedly I'm sure). Think that baby would've been all deformed and stuff?

 

[Illuin]

from chrysophalax
"I would have to go with Other, since my choice encompasses several upsetting incidents with but one cause...the Birth of Turin."

Maybe I should put this in the “What If” thread; but what if Hurin’s family wasn’t cursed? Do you think Turin would have still been a screw-up? Do you think the chain of unfortunate events that eventually led to his fate would have been much different? Maybe Morgoth said to himself; “I don’t even have to curse him; he’ll screw things up on his own far better than I ever could” .

What do you think?

 

[chrysophalax]

Hmmmmmm, dare I open this can of worms, or not? Playing "what if?" is usually a fruitless, though sometimes interesting, pastime that has no real winner.

My first reaction to that question would be to say that if his family were not cursed, of course things would be different. I believe Turin had in him the natural charisma and courage of a born leader. His great downfall, in my opinion, was his self-centeredness and lack of self-control.

This argument also dodges the whole free-will issue, which can always be addressed at a later time. *scuttles away*

 

[Illuin]

I am with you on that…that is why I didn’t place it in the “What If” thread. I definitely prefer the deeply pondered responses (that may come only once month or so), over the rapid-fire one-liners that I have observed in some of the “What If” threads (even if they are enjoyable in their own way).

That being said, prior to the Glaurung encounters, I really don’t see things being any different in Turin‘s life leading up to that. Also (just a passing thought here); many fans, even the die-hard fans tend to dislike this tale, and go on and on about how depressing it is. I think the level of depth regarding Tolkien’s understanding of human nature was unparalleled in this story. The mentality of Turin reminded me many times (though not on an epic scale) of my own stubbornness and pride; leading me to shoot myself in the foot for the sake of; well……who knows……maybe making my life far more difficult than it needs to be. Yeah, it’s a tragedy beyond words, but it certainly made me realize the insight of my favorite author regarding the everyday shortcomings of humanity. It's indeed a favorite of mine, and without it, I’m not sure my passion would be a passion at all. Sometimes it just takes that “icing on the cake” when it comes to a fan being promoted to fanatic .

 

[Illuin]

PS - Renaissance Fair approaching. I am getting another Dragon from the "Dragon Lady". Any suggestions?

I have a massive apple tree in the back yard; so I’m considering "Ladon"; the guardian of the golden apple tree. What would you suggest? .

 

[baragund]

I picked the war between the Dwarves and Doriath but, to me, this tragedy plus the sack of Doriath by the sons of Feanor and the last kinslayings after the War of Wrath showed a level of senselessness and futility that was at least several notches above the other tragedies.

 

[chrysophalax]

Ah, lucky Illuin!

Well, assuming you've already used all the Tolkien names for dragons, Fafnir would be my next choice. I haven't thought about Ladon in years! He seems a great choice, since you have an apple tree...but does it bear golden apples?

 

[Illuin]

Well, I must say that they at least “taste” like golden apples; and in all honesty, they are sick! There are so many apples on this damn thing that many go to waste. Diane however makes at least ten gallons of the most unbelievable applesauce you can imagine. Quite a recipe, and the neighbors are very happy. Does that qualify as “Golden”?

 

[Illuin]

from baragund
"I picked the war between the Dwarves and Doriath but, to me, this tragedy plus the sack of Doriath by the sons of Feanor and the last kinslayings after the War of Wrath showed a level of senselessness and futility that was at least several notches above the other tragedies."

Yeah, that one was indeed a sore spot for me as well. I don’t wish to debate with the “Feanor fans”, but that guy in reality was accountable and responsible for every single tragedy (whether directly or indirectly) that transpired in the First Age. Why he is regarded by some as the “Greatest of the Elves” will forever be a mystery to me.

 

[Gothmog]

Yeah, that one was indeed a sore spot for me as well. I don’t wish to debate with the “Feanor fans”, but that guy in reality was accountable and responsible for every single tragedy (whether directly or indirectly) that transpired in the First Age. Why he is regarded by some as the “Greatest of the Elves” will forever be a mystery to me.

Feanor was in his beginning, the "greatest" of the elves in all things in the same way that Melkor was in His beginning the "greatest" of the Ainur. Both could have done wonderful works but Melkor fell from this position when he decided to go against the rest of the Ainur and became "evil". One of his acts that caused much grief was 'the marring of Feanor' which caused the elf to fall from his position of greatness and become one of the great banes of the First-Age. What he achieved before his fall is still much admired by many and is the reason that Feanor is concidered the "Greatest of the Elves" (he was even the greatest in how far he fell )

 

[Bucky]

Nothing 'upsets' me - it's a story!

But I voted 'other' because it's the oath of Feanor - everything flows from there.

BTW - just dawned on me....

What about the slaying of the 2 Trees?

 

[Inderjit S]

What about the death of Feanor? Or the Battle of Unnumbered Tears? Jeez. The sight of all those Noldor dieing, brings tears to my eyes even now. And who on earth would give half a damn about the Teleri, or the Sindar, or that spurious phillistine, Thingol?

Yeah, that one was indeed a sore spot for me as well. I don’t wish to debate with the “Feanor fans”, but that guy in reality was accountable and responsible for every single tragedy (whether directly or indirectly) that transpired in the First Age. Why he is regarded by some as the “Greatest of the Elves” will forever be a mystery to me.

Bleh. For all of his many faults, Feanor is problably the most interesting character Tolkien created. You must remember that he was the only Elf in Aman whose mother had died, which would have affected his development. I mean, if it wasn't for Feanor, we would be stuck with tepid and rather banal tales about the Elves dancing around Manwe singing sonorous soporifics. Feanor merely ignited the fire which was burning in the Noldor-the fire for disovery and danger, Tolkien states that pretty explicitily-why else do you think Melkor chose the Noldor as his apprentices? Because he recognised the unrest and arrogance which existed in all of their hearts. Without Feanor, men would never have been raised to their original, 'higher' level, yes his actions were unintended, and yes his actions were evil, but Feanor is by far the most important character in Tolkien's mythology, the Valar aside. And he is the most powerful non-Valar (he was problably as 'powerful' as some Maia) in Tolkien's legendarium, his cultural and technological achievement were unmatched-Feanor was in spirit the most powerful of all Eru's children, but like Melkor, the old Actonian platitude remerges-absolute power, corrupts absolutely. In any case, I think that Tolkien hints that after the great End-of-the-world, Feanor will 'redeem' himself'-how unoriginal! Maybe he is just looking for a way out of Mandos.