The fate of Ecthelion the Balrog-slayer

[Burzum]

I think it is worthy of note that of the three known identities who have slain a Balrog (Ecthelion, Glorfindel, and Gandalf), all were slain themselves in the process, but two were sent back while one was not. Gandalf is more or less a special case (he's a Maia, etc.), so I can understand ignoring his case in relation to Ecthelion's case, but Glorfindel's case is too similar to be dismissed.

They are both from Gondolin, are leaders of major houses, and died in the same war. Some of the differences I can think of are: Glorfindel's body was preserved and he had Vanyarin blood. The Vanyarin blood doesn't matter, since by the time Glorfindel was sent back the ban against the Noldor was cleared, and he was a Noldo at any rate. The preservation of the corpse does seem more important, but I don't think it would matter much.

So, why wasn't Ecthelion sent back?

Maybe I'm thinking backwards, though; "why/how was Glorfindel sent back?" might be a better question, since in the bigger picture (outside of the frame of Balrog-slayers), Glorfindel's case is the peculiar one, not Ecthelion's.

 

[YayGollum]

Tolkien doesn't write enough about reincarnation, for myself. I don't see why Ecthelion couldn't have been reincarnated, too. We just never met the guy in his new body. I read that any elf could get reincarnated. I read nothing about requirements for a new body, besides having some living relatives who plan on having a kid. I am wondering if Glorfindel's soul was tossed into the body of the unborn elf, then he had to grow up with lots of frustrations. "Shut up, lady! I'm Glorfindel! You can't tell me what to do! Could you hand me that thing on the top shelf really quick?" Or did he get to grow up like any other kid, and there was some sort of trigger to traumatically flood him with his old body's memories, thereby making him scoff at the boring life he'd been peacefully living with his new family? I don't know how reincarnation works. I would like to, since I have a cool idea for another elf type character.

 

[Elthir]

Tolkien seems to find a number of reasons why Glorfindel was reincarnated (being under the ban was problematic). He didn't list them like this, but here goes:

1) Glorfindel was an Elda of high and noble spirit (I'm going to assume exceptionally high and noble is meant)

2) he incurred the ban reluctantly only because of kinship and allegiance to Turgon, and love for his Kindred.

3) he took no part in the Kinslaying

4) 'More important': he had sacrificed his life, enabling Tuor and Idril to escape, a deed of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.

So Glorfindel was purged of any guilt (in note 12 Tolkien describes that his guilt had been small, and once again refers to his noble character, among other things), released from Mandos, and Manwe restored him to bodily life -- and he gained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. It is then said he became a friend and follower of Gandalf! Glorfindel remained in the Blessed Realm, but his ultimate return (it is said) must have been for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, in SA 1600 it appears.

YayGollum, basically for a (very) long time JRRT held that an Elf could be reincarnated by being reborn as a child, but he ultimately rejected this. Tolkien turned to the idea of the Valar restoring the body, and noted that the former idea must be abandoned or at least noted as a false notion.

 

[Burzum]

That looks like enough explanation. Thanks.

 

[YayGollum]

No information on how things would have worked in the reincarnation scenario, though? That crazy Tolkien guy changed his mind on all kinds of things, and I have no problem with working with whichever idea is more convenient, or just making something up, if required.

 

[Elthir]

No information on how things would have worked in the reincarnation scenario, though?

Tolkien did write some texts, and Christopher Tolkien did not reproduce them in full but explained the essential points. There is a manuscript entitled Reincarnation of Elves wherein JRRT decided that the Elvish fea retains a memory, an imprint of its hroa, its 'former house', so powerful and precise that the reconstruction of an identical body can proceed from it. For Tolkien's description of fea see below, as it's a bit long I paraphrased it just a bit for brevity.

This idea of the fea retaining a memory of its hroa for Elvish reincarnation appears in another work called The Converse of Manwe and Eru. In this text re-birth was still an alternate possibility, however it was not within the power of the Valar, and God said: 'Those whom ye judge fit to be re-born, if they desire it and understand clearly what they incur, ye shall surrender to Me; and I will consider them'. But Christopher Tolkien explains that JRRT had difficulties with the idea of re-birth, both practical and psychological difficulties, the most fatal objection being that it: '... contradicts the fundamental notion that fea and hroa were each fitted to the other, and since hroar have a physical descent, the body of rebirth, having different parents, must be different, and this must be a condition of pain to the reborn fea.'


A later text (in two versions) is characterized as a discussion of the question of Elvish reincarnation. The essentials are explained in note 17 to Last Writings, reproduced in the last volume of The History of Middle-Earth series. It is said that JRRT discussed again the idea that Elvish reincarnation might be achieved by re-birth, 'and rejected it as emphatically as he had done in the discussion called Reincarnation of Elves'. This is also where Christopher explains (that JRRT wrote) that the idea must be abandoned or at least noted as a false notion, probably of Mannish origin.


A somewhat simplified version of the matter anyway!

__________


Fea: 'spirit': the particular 'spirit' belonging to and 'housed' in any one hroa of the incarnates, corresponding, more or less to 'soul' and to 'mind', when any attempt is made to distinguish between mentality, and the mental processes of incarnates, conditioned and limited by the co-operation of the physical organs of the hroa. It was thus in its being (apart from its experience) the impulse and power to think: enquire and reflect, as distinct from the means of acquiring data. It was conscious and self-aware: 'self' however in Incarnates included the hroa. The fea was said by the Eldar to retain the impress or memory of the hroa and of all the combined experiences of itself and its body.

 

[Bucky]

Some of the differences I can think of are: Glorfindel's body was preserved and he had Vanyarin blood.

Where'd those things come from?

Never heard either.....

First one, Glorf's body fell a long way & must've been pretty damaged, though brought out of the abyss.....

 

[Elthir]

Well the Vanyarin association likely comes from Glorfindel's golden hair. Technically Tolkien reveals that he was a Noldo with 'kinship' to Turgon (whose wife was Elenwe of course) but doesn't go into detail on the nature of this kinship. Since Tolkien writes...

'Owing to intermarriage the golden hair of the Vanyar sometimes later appeared among the Ñoldor: notably in the case of Finarfin, and in his children Finrod and Galadriel, in whom it came from King Finwe's second wife, Indis of the Vanyar.' JRRT Quendi And Eldar

... it wouldn't be that much of a jump for Glorfindel to have some Vanyarin ancestry, though it's not stated anywhere specifically that I recall. Before the late essays on Glorfindel were published Robert Foster (Guide to Middle-earth) had conjectured that Glorfindel was possibly of the House of Finarfin, due to his hair.

 

[Alcuin]

A few ideas:

1. When did Glorfindel return to Middle-earth? There is some textual evidence, I think I recall – Galin may be able to put his finger upon it faster than I – that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, not the Third, when the Istari appeared.
2. Glorfindel died protecting Eärendil and his parents from a Balrog in the Pass of Crissaegrim; Ecthelion died leading part of the defense of the city of Gondolin. Now, Ecthelion proved incredibly tough: he speared Gothmog with the spike on his helmet after he’d lost both his arms; and Gothmog was arguably the toughest f the bad guys besides Sauron and Morgoth (and possibly one of the dragons, such as Ancalagon) but the battle for Gondolin was already lost; Glorfindel died to sustain hope, and by his sacrifice, Tuor, Idril, and Eärendil survived to reach the Mouths of Sirion. This might be argued to have no bearing on whether Glorfindel might have returned to Middle-earth rather than Ecthelion; but I think it does.
3. The simple fact is that Ecthelion might well have had enough of Middle-earth; Glorfindel clearly had not.
4. Perhaps the whole issue simply revolves about the fact that Tolkien re-used the name Glorfindel while writing LotR.

Should we not assume that Ecthelion suffered a stay in Mandos, was released, and returned to Eldamar to be with his family and friends, as did apparently many other of the Noldor who went to Middle-earth?

 

[Illuin]

by Galin
Before the late essays on Glorfindel were published Robert Foster (Guide to Middle-earth) had conjectured that Glorfindel was possibly of the House of Finarfin, due to his hair.

I don’t see how that would be possible myself, at all; given the known genealogies of the House of Finarfin. I’m pretty sure Tolkien would have revealed that in some way (in HoME, his Letters, somewhere), considering how much attention was given to the House of Finarfin in all of his writings. Even in LoTR, it was an Elf from the House of Finarfin (Galadriel) that had a pivotal role. So I’m not buying this Foster character’s "conjecture" .

As far as Alcuin’s post; I think you nailed it spot on. That’s about as accurate and comprehensive as you can get with this subject as far as I'm concerned .

 

[Elthir]

(...) When did Glorfindel return to Middle-earth? There is some textual evidence, I think I recall – Galin may be able to put his finger upon it faster than I – that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, not the Third, when the Istari appeared.

I'm usually pretty quick on Glorfindel matters, once I find the thread

SA 1600 is appears.

JRRT imagined that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, before the shadow fell on Númenor, and that it 'might' have been as early as SA 1200, when Sauron came to Lindon. In Of The Rings Of Power however, it was said that only to Lindon he (Sauron) did not come, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming. Anyway, Tolkien continues: 'But it may have been, perhaps more probably,' as late as c. 1600, when the Dark Tower was completed and the One forged. Tolkien writes that in 1600 it became clear to the leaders of the Elves, Men and Dwarves that war was inevitable against Sauron, now unmasked as a new Dark Lord.

This is from Glorfindel II. There is a note that presumably came between the writing of Glorfindel I and II (CJRT guesses), since JRRT mused that while Glorfindel might have come with Gandalf: 'it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the war'.

At the end of this note is written 'Númenórean ship' presumably indicating how Glorfindel crossed the Sea.

 

[Bucky]

Now, Ecthelion proved incredibly tough: he speared Gothmog with the spike on his helmet after he’d lost both his arms;

This is such an early writing, one of Tolkien's original Lost Tales in fact, that one cannot accept it as a 'historical' part of Middle-earth 'canon' by any stretch of the imagination.........

The number of Balrogs is far greater than Tolkien later came to conceive & the story has Tuor & Ectellion killing Balrogs
left & right (3 & 5 each I believe).


On Gloefindel's return to Middle'earth, Tolkien wrote those 2 essays very late in life & close together (1967). I think it's fair to say that, as in many unpublished matters, it was hardly selttled in Tolkien's mind whether Glorfindel returned in the Second or Third Age.......

Each version presents it's own difficulties in trying to fit into 'know history'.

On the one hand, we have it on record that the Istari came alone in the Third Age 1000.

But, if Glorfindel came on a special ship in c. S.A. 1600, why is he never mentioned until T.A. 1976?
Why is such a prominant elf not mentioned in the Last Alliance, for example?

 

[Elthir]

On Gloefindel's return to Middle'earth, Tolkien wrote those 2 essays very late in life & close together (1967).

Even later, in 1972 is seems (or so I read CJRT's commentary to this).

I think it's fair to say that, as in many unpublished matters, it was hardly selttled in Tolkien's mind whether Glorfindel returned in the Second or Third Age.......

This made me rethink Glorfindel I (GI), which might contain an easier reason for Glorfindel to have returned -- as a companion to Gandalf on his voyage to Middle-earth in the Third Age, possibly as a guard or assistant in addition to being a friend and follower (considering the first words of the second page anyway, noting that the first page is missing).

'... as guards or assistants. An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party, more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf-Olórin about Third Age 1000.'

[skipping to end of GI]

'(...) It is indeed probable that he had in Valinor already become a friend and follower of Olórin, Even in the brief glimpses of him given in The Lord of the Rings he appears as specially concerned with Gandalf, and was one (the most powerful it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandalf had never reappeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer.'

Tolkien seems to reject this in Glorfindel II, but there he appears to be considering it an improbable exception that Glorfindel be sent to Middle-earth after the Blessed Realm was removed from the Circles of the World. OK, but as the focus of the trip was really Gandalf and the mission of the Istari anyway, I don't think it necessarily would make Glorfindel '... of greater power and importance than seems fitting' (GII) to have him accompany the Wizard.

Hmmm. I kind of like this explanation from GI myself.

Each version presents it's own difficulties in trying to fit into 'know history'. On the one hand, we have it on record that the Istari came alone in the Third Age 1000. But, if Glorfindel came on a special ship in c. S.A. 1600, why is he never mentioned until T.A. 1976? Why is such a prominant elf not mentioned in the Last Alliance, for example?

On a slip of paper, seemingly written between GI and GII, JRRT noted: 'it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the war.'

I posted that earlier but here emphasizing Tolkien's 'not (yet) mentioned' -- in the context of this earlier return anyway. Seems like maybe he planned to add something in some way.

 

[Bucky]

On a slip of paper, seemingly written between GI and GII, JRRT noted: 'it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the war.'

I posted that earlier but here emphasizing Tolkien's 'not (yet) mentioned' -- in the context of this earlier return anyway. Seems like maybe he planned to add something in some way.

OK, I'll buy that.

 

[Tyelkormo]

I think it's maybe a bit trying too hard to getting sense into something Tolkien made up ex post facto to weed out inconsistencies. All the more so since in working that way, you all too often simply replace one inconsistency with another. I never was quite fond of the "Glorfindel was sent back" explanation. In my eyes, it diminishes Luthien's being allowed back to some degree.

So in any case, the explanation for "Why was Glorfindel sent back but not Ecthelion?" is that Tolkien needed to iron out a Glorfindel-related glitch, not an Ecthelion-related glitch

 

[Prince of Cats]

I never was quite fond of the "Glorfindel was sent back" explanation. In my eyes, it diminishes Luthien's being allowed back to some degree.

Yeah, I can see it diminishing the significance of Luthien being allowed back, but there are different motives to each. Luthien was for a relationship, Glorfindel was to battle Sauron for the fate of Arda. It all does seem a bit convenient, though

 

[Bucky]

Well, I too was never that comfortable with the 'GSBS' (Glorfindel Sent Back Syndrome), and all because of a duplicate name.......

But, it's Tolkien's world, not mine or your's.

Reading HoMe, there's a wealth of evidence that dead Elves reaquire their bodies in time. (It's even stated in The Silmarillion: 'And Finrod walks with his father Finarfin beneath the trees in Eldamar'' after his death in Minas Tirith to the werewolf).

So, Tolkien sends one who was 'born again' back to Middle-earth (sounds absurd that the Valar would do this even as I write it)......

Perhaps not that absurd though.

Just a precursor to the Istari......

 

[Illuin]

Originally posted by Tyelkormo
I never was quite fond of the "Glorfindel was sent back" explanation. In my eyes, it diminishes Luthien's being allowed back to some degree.

Prince brings up a good point. I think it should be the other way around personally. What makes Lúthien more worthy of being sent back than Glorfindel? Because she was half Maia? That would mean that Eru ruled by the law of precedence. Lúthien wanted to be with her man; Glorfindel wanted to assist in saving the Elves of Middle Earth (actually; help save Middle Earth itself). Disregarding the relative importance of pedigree, who is more deserving? Glorfindel’s intent is far more noble as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Tyelkormo]

Prince brings up a good point. I think it should be the other way around personally. What makes Lúthien more worthy of being sent back than Glorfindel? Because she was half Maia? That would mean that Eru ruled by the law of precedence. Lúthien wanted to be with her man; Glorfindel wanted to assist in saving the Elves of Middle Earth (actually; help save Middle Earth itself). Disregarding the relative importance of pedigree, who is more deserving? Glorfindel’s intent is far more noble as far as I’m concerned.

As a counter, I need but point at Tolkien's grave: He didn't marry Glorfindel....

 

[Prince of Cats]

As a counter, I need but point at Tolkien's grave: He didn't marry Glorfindel....

Wow, I'd never seen this before!

Thanks, Tyelkormo