Nardor

[Spirit of Fire]

Cool! Engaging ideas are great, especially when we're all respectful of the work others have put in.

 

[Olorgando]

I merely was pointing out what you wrote was mocking the author. Once again you are playing semantics.

I have just spent quite a bit of time reading this thread (the much smaller portion of time) and "Was Smaug in the War of Wrath?" (the much larger portion of time). Bard the Bowman's fanfic on Nandor on the first page of this thread really wasn't bad (though I have read next to no fanfics - a few that I started off on soon had me thinking "Whoa! Take it easy, don't pile stuff on like that!"), and I know that is something I'm not capable of. Somehow I'm more of a "researcher" - much more into nonfiction writing that fiction by orders of magnitude. That said, I not so rarely find myself treating JRRT's works as "non-fiction". It's that suspension of disbelief that I think JRRT got down better than any author I've ever heard of. I mean, just look at the "Do Balrogs have Wings" and Tom Bombadil" threads, probably on any JRRT site, and I guess I'm not alone in suspending my disbelief, and there are 18 books of in total almost 8,000 pages (in my paperback versions) to mine.

That said.

We are here dealing with a sort of "history", as JRRT himself wrote in the foreword to the second edition: "I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers." With history, we are mostly dealing with plausibilities (probability and statistics, as in all social sciences, and far more of natural science than most people probably realize). I personally hesitate to go beyond "more / less probable than ...". "Two thirds" or "three quarters" - if stated as "more than" with good arguments (or "less than" for their complements) - I guess so, hesitantly. But if someone starts putting numbers behind the decimal point, I start to get a rash (I was confronted, over 40 years ago, with a mathematical course in macroeconomics where they did this and I was thinking "guys, you error margin is obviously plus/minus 5 percent! What's with the decimal places, fer cryin' out loud?"). And one's "more than / less than" conclusions depend on one's personal assumptions - something even needed in natural sciences as a starting point for experiments. But a true scientist would then, if the results do not turn out as expected, go back and take a look at the assumptions.

"Was Smaug in the War of Wrath?"

Not impossible, certainly. Also not proven, equally certainly. But Bard the Bowman's posts very quickly made me think "What's his problem?!?" (And I am 99.99 percent sure Bard is a he). No one in that thread posted more ad hominem attacks on those dissenting with him than he did. Not even in sum total. So in one sense, Spirit of Fire, I would not have the slightest problem with anyone mocking this author. On a "good" day, I could probably be appropriately vicious.

In another sense, and one of the opponents posted in that sense, I have the fear that Bard needs professional help. His inability to tolerate disagreement from others seems to be close to nonexistent (now what does that remind me of in current news?!? ). Pointing to a non-trivial narcissistic condition. No, I'm not a professional. But what I have read about such things (this is part of my non-fiction interest that I mentioned above) puts me pretty close to some of them. And I have encountered some lazy ones that might very well have profited from my "amateur" knowledge.

 

[Olorgando]

He definitely had posts deleted in his time so there may be gaps.

I just let fly a longish post concerning Bard near its end. I will not retract anything, I stand by my Grendel-mode posts when I consider them justified.

 

[Spirit of Fire]

Interesting points, Olorgando. There is a thread dedicated to Smaug's possible appearance in the War of Wrath, and let's try not to stray into the realm of politics (unless there's a thread somewhere on here where that is appropriate). Bard may not have acted in the best manner, but personally I see a lot of goading and inciting from some other members (perhaps indicating a history?) so it may be shared fault.

Back on topic, we should just be able to read fan fiction for what it is, and if we enjoy it, great. We can engage and possibly add, and if we don't enjoy it, perhaps it's best to avoid that thread if courtesy and respect are absent.

 

[Olorgando]

... let's try not to stray into the realm of politics (unless there's a thread somewhere on here where that is appropriate).

Nope, no politics or religion threads allowed. I was "only" referring to news, but there's this titanic Obvious One ...

Bard may not have acted in the best manner, but personally I see a lot of goading and inciting from some other members (perhaps indicating a history?) so it may be shared fault.

A huge majority of the posts that Bard went "ballistic" on in the sense of replying with ad hominem attacks would not even have elicited a shrug from me. Not worth even that (and no, I'm not the Dalai Lama). And I have massive sympathy for a huge majority of the replies that slapped him down. Mainly with quotes from JRRT's writings.

Back on topic, we should just be able to read fan fiction for what it is, and if we enjoy it, great. We can engage and possibly add, and if we don't enjoy it, perhaps it's best to avoid that thread if courtesy and respect are absent.

As I mentioned above, if there is one thing I should not get involved in is any kind of fiction writing. I'm desperately trying to think of something I'm equally bad at. Only General Relativity Theory and Quantum Mechanics come to mind (and the only thing I know about them is that … what Socrates is supposed to have said about 2,500 years ago).

 

[Spirit of Fire]

Nope, no politics or religion threads allowed. I was "only" referring to news, but there's this titanic Obvious One ...

Well, I didn't say you were, but it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to see where you're heading. So, like I said, let's try not to stray into the realm of politics.

Personally, I didn't really see any ad hominem attacks from either side. I observed annoyance and frustration from both sides, and bullying from one, which I think guaranteed there wouldn't be a resolution resulting from the discourse. The members in question needed to change within themselves, and it appears that wasn't achieved. Like I said, more than what you and I may be witnessing, there appears to have been a history between Bard and the others.

Back to the fan fiction, let's just sit back and enjoy it. I like the idea of Nardor, another morally ambiguous realm with stakes in both sides.

 

[Olorgando]

Personally, I didn't really see any ad hominem attacks from either side.

Here I disagree. I see plenty, and originating quite one-sidedly.

Like I said, more than what you and I may be witnessing, there appears to have been a history between Bard and the others.

That's another matter. Quite plausible, perhaps Erestor Arcamen or another staff member have more insight into this.

Back to the fan fiction, let's just sit back and enjoy it. I like the idea of Nardor, another morally ambiguous realm with stakes in both sides.

Hmyes. But what is to be found on page one of this thread is, in its compressed form, rather akin to the annals that JRRT was also quite fond of creating, leading to Appendix B in RoTK. Or actually, as date entries are missing, closer to Appendix A. I guess I (we?) can repeat Erestor Arcamen's question from back on 03 March 2012 "... is there another website out there with information/fan fiction that one can read up on this if one is interested in learning more?"
Something that I find plausible, but I found no references (let alone links) to any such expanded version.

 

[Spirit of Fire]

Hmyes. But what is to be found on page one of this thread is, in its compressed form, rather akin to the annals that JRRT was also quite fond of creating, leading to Appendix B in RoTK. Or actually, as date entries are missing, closer to Appendix A. I guess I (we?) can repeat Erestor Arcamen's question from back on 03 March 2012 "... is there another website out there with information/fan fiction that one can read up on this if one is interested in learning more?"
Something that I find plausible, but I found no references (let alone links) to any such expanded version.

From what I read, and continue to read, I believe Erestor Arcamen's query was pure mockery, if not spite.

 

[Elthir]

( . . . ) I have the fear that Bard needs professional help. His inability to tolerate disagreement from others seems to be close to nonexistent (edit for brevity). Pointing to a non-trivial narcissistic condition.

Bucky thought he was a web troll, and unless I'm mistaken, in theory these kind of "trolls" want to stir up trouble, and thus, I would think, expect to get the reactions they get, and arguably delight in the "feeding" as they say.

It's not impossible. But who knows? And as we can see from this thread, it appears Bard came back and tried to act like he was someone else, which caused further unrest.

I'll note that when Ando posts, he often, and rightly, puts me in my place. He does not have his own account here of course, but since he is almost as handsome as I am, even my avatar works well enough for him. And when he jumps in and bans me, I already know I deserve it. Deep down, Ando and I are almost the same person, except, for a notable example, that I know far more about Galadriel than he does.

Which irks him, I think

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Correct, once Bard was banned and maybe even before, he had several fake accounts (we know because the IP was the same) where he pushed the Nardor fanfiction as if it was some masterpiece in storytelling. I and others were perfectly willing to accept he had written a story and it wasn't awful but then he was only satisfied if he got constant praise and love for it which is when users like Bucky and Troll (literally his username) had had enough and stopped taking him and his posts seriously. I think that's where my post asking for more information came from, sarcastically acting as if I'd never heard of Nardor before when Bard and his alteregos were constantly ramming it down our throats. I'm assuming a lot of these have been deleted because when you ban someone it gives the option to delete all posts by said user; again, I wasn't a mod at the time so do not know actions what previous mods had taken. So most of his alternative accounts and their content is gone.

 

[Elthir]

EA, do you know why Bard's "last seen" currently has no date of month or year, just Tuesday with a time?

Is that a result of being banned before it could change?

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

EA, do you know why Bard's "last seen" currently has no date of month or year, just Tuesday with a time?

Is that a result of being banned before it could change?

I'm not sure how banning works. He may still be able to login but just not post or interact with anything so it could be that he logged in on Tuesday of last week.

 

[Olorgando]

...
So most of his alternative accounts and their content is gone.

OK, so you were sarcastic.
But the question, I would think, is quite legitimate.
I do have the impression that Bard's earliest posts were something of a synopsis of a larger work.
Did Bard post this here, but it has been deleted by the banning action, or was / is there someplace else where it could be read by those interested?

 

[Elthir]

Okay, thanks EA 👍

[Elthir stumbles off to find a Galadriel thread]

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

OK, so you were sarcastic.
But the question, I would think, is quite legitimate.
I do have the impression that Bard's earliest posts were something of a synopsis of a larger work.
Did Bard post this here, but it has been deleted by the banning action, or was / is there someplace else where it could be read by those interested?

I think he mainly just kept mentioning it in other threads at first as if it were canon and then this thread is the one where he wrote it out the most.

In the Glittering Caves he made mention of it and Maeglor surviving in these threads:

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/peak-nardorian-population.20386/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/the-fate-of-maglor.20321/

I don't think there are other threads solely related to Nardor on TTfF, at least that haven't been deleted.

 

[Spirit of Fire]

It seems there are a lot of fragments relating to Nardor. As a staff member, Erestor Arcamen, are you able to collect them and perhaps put them in their own thread location (e.g. Sandyman Mill or The Black Arrow as a new grouping). Since they're on a number of different threads it would help to consolidate it. Y'all will know more than me, but on this particular thread it seems Bard freely admitted to his identity from his other accounts. He could have been a troll, although usually trolls won't put as much effort into their writing, as evident in this tale.

 

[Elthir]

( . . . ) but on this particular thread it seems Bard freely admitted to his identity from his other accounts.

In this thread, Bard, as Only Mountain, eventually said:

Actually Troll I am now the keeper of Nardor, having been bequeathed the responsibility by Bard himself and as you all seem to think I am Bard, I am the only one worthy to continue this great tale. In fact, I provided a good deal of the inspiration for this magnificent tale, so I put as much, if not more thought into the story than Bard the Bowman. Therefore we will discard your cow-pat of a post, and once more leave the floor open for questions concerning Nardor, to be answered exclusively by me.

 

[Spirit of Fire]

His other account, Brand of Dale, he openly admitted to being Bard, as well as from Only Mountain

 

[Elthir]

His other account, Brand of Dale, he openly admitted to being Bard, as well as from Only Mountain

Where do you find, in this thread "as well as from Only Mountain"

 

[Spirit of Fire]

Where do you find, in this thread "as well as from Only Mountain"

His post that you quoted is not difficult to interpret. Or are we to assume that interpretative reasoning should only be applied to your comments?