About firearms

[Hisoka Morrow]

JRRT always describe military weapons in obscure ways, apart from weapons for single combat like cold steel. Yet I found some proof that JRRT allowed firearms to make their appearance.

For example, in the siege of Minas-Tirith, JRRT has mentioned that bombardment has taken a heavy roles for both defenders to destroy the siege towers or for the attackers to annihilate personnel. The "strange fire" that explode Helms-deep is obviously a indirect way to mention firearms. In the legendarium-fall of Gondolin, many "war machines" from both sides have kicked a bunch of asses.

Just provide and discuss anything you know about firearms in JRRT's lore^^

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Nothing, to be honest. Aragorn descibes a "blasting fire" at Helm's Deep, and says "they have lit the fire of Orthanc". This is apparently some form of gunpowder, but not evidence of firearms.

Something similar, or the same, is used at the Rammas Echor, though we "see" it only at a distance.

IIRC the tank-like machines at Gondolin operated more like flamethrowers, and there seems to have been something akin to Greek fire in use at Minas Tirith also.

The siege engines are specifically called catapults.

So I see no evidence for actual firearms.

 

[Olorgando]

For one thing, as a siege engine, the counterweight trebuchet was still used as late as the late 15th century. There was quite a bit of overlap of this specific "catapult" and cannon, as for quite a while the trebuchet had greater range, accuracy and mass of missile. This also had to do with the black powder or gunpowder used as propellant. While it was less volatile than nitroglycerine or it's "tamed" form dynamite or TNT (what made Alfred Nobel's fortune, which he then donated to found the Nobel prizes as a sort of "penance" for what predictable misuses the military put his invention to), it still has a pretty severe recoil compared to modern "smokeless" powder. Which then points to another disadvantage of gunpowder, causing a fog or smog after a certain number of volleys - and earlier musketeers at least did fire in volleys as did the English bowmen of earlier eras - none of this pure fantasy "precision" shooting so popular in Robin Hood films!

And last the term firearms. "A firearm is a type of gun designed to be readily carried and used by a single individual." There certainly was none of that in either books or films. Even heavy machine guns often need two soldiers to operate, and with artillery the number goes up.

 

[Aldarion]

Regarding gunpowder artillery, we actually have Numenoreans (Lost Road ones) use rocket artillery ("our darts fly over leagues unerring").

 

[Olorgando]

Regarding gunpowder artillery, we actually have Numenoreans (Lost Road ones) use rocket artillery ("our darts fly over leagues unerring").

Well, maybe, but I'd put "Lost Road" definitely below "Book of Lost Tales" in terms of "canon" ... 😒

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Or "cannon".

 

[Olorgando]

Or "cannon".

No, no, no, one N. dammit! 🧐

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Hey, it was just a shot across the bows. . .

 

[Olorgando]

Bows ain't "fire"-arms in the strict sense. Hardly any noise, no light flashes or smoke.
In a strict sense, bows were "arms-arms". Boy, those English (and earlier Welsh, from whom the English stole the idea) longbowmen had rather unusual shoulders and arms. They started training in childhood. You 'n' me, we'd have serious problems drawing a high-poundage longbow to "full-pull"!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

 

[Olorgando]

Photon torpedoes, phasers - those seem all to be "light-arms".
Something with an entirely different connotation in the ST universe than in ours ... 😎

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

 

[Olorgando]

Hey, before I noticed and corrected it, I had posted "SW universe".
Triple, quadruple, quintuple ...? 😁

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I think I should quit while I'm behind. 🥴



Oh, well.

 

[Olorgando]

I think I should quit while I'm behind. 🥴
Oh, well.
View attachment 7699

No, no, no - just not getting better.
Cannonball flight shown as a straight line drawn by a ruler.
There is this bit called ballistics! Trigonometry! Other stuff!
🙄

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Cannon

What was that again?

 

[Olorgando]

Well, actually:

For one thing, as a siege engine, the counterweight trebuchet was still used as late as the late 15th century. There was quite a bit of overlap of this specific "catapult" and cannon, as for quite a while the trebuchet had greater range, accuracy and mass of missile. This also had to do with the black powder or gunpowder used as propellant. While it was less volatile than nitroglycerine or it's "tamed" form dynamite or TNT (what made Alfred Nobel's fortune, which he then donated to found the Nobel prizes as a sort of "penance" for what predictable misuses the military put his invention to), it still has a pretty severe recoil compared to modern "smokeless" powder. Which then points to another disadvantage of gunpowder, causing a fog or smog after a certain number of volleys - and earlier musketeers at least did fire in volleys as did the English bowmen of earlier eras - none of this pure fantasy "precision" shooting so popular in Robin Hood films!

And last the term firearms. "A firearm is a type of gun designed to be readily carried and used by a single individual." There certainly was none of that in either books or films. Even heavy machine guns often need two soldiers to operate, and with artillery the number goes up.

No, no, no - just not getting better.
Cannonball flight shown as a straight line drawn by a ruler.
There is this bit called ballistics! Trigonometry! Other stuff!
🙄

... yes, posted it twice in this thread, you're paying attention (for whatever reason 🤨 ).

 

[Halasían]

Nothing, to be honest. Aragorn descibes a "blasting fire" at Helm's Deep, and says "they have lit the fire of Orthanc". This is apparently some form of gunpowder, but not evidence of firearms.

Well said.
As for 'gunpowder' being used at Helms Deep, I never envisioned it as PJ did in the movies, but thought of it as a 'blasting spell' conjoured by Sarumann from Orthanc, much like the way he could cause an avalanche from Caradhras onto the Redhorn Pass.

Something similar, or the same, is used at the Rammas Echor, though we "see" it only at a distance.

Trying to remember this part. I'm definitely overdue for a read through Lord of the Rings.

IIRC the tank-like machines at Gondolin operated more like flamethrowers, and there seems to have been something akin to Greek fire in use at Minas Tirith also.

The siege engines are specifically called catapults.

So I see no evidence for actual firearms.

Yes, I had envisioned the use of flaming 'pitchballs' being slung by either catapults/trébuchets into Minas Tirith.
It has been many many years since I read The Silmarillion... more specificly the part about Gondolin, but for some reason I thought they were great worms (wingless dragons).

Bows ain't "fire"-arms in the strict sense. Hardly any noise, no light flashes or smoke.
In a strict sense, bows were "arms-arms". Boy, those English (and earlier Welsh, from whom the English stole the idea) longbowmen had rather unusual shoulders and arms. They started training in childhood. You 'n' me, we'd have serious problems drawing a high-poundage longbow to "full-pull"!

What if the arrow was lit on fire before being shot? Does that make it a 'firearm'?

Hey, before I noticed and corrected it, I had posted "SW universe".
Triple, quadruple, quintuple ...? 😁

"I hope the don't have Blasters baby..."


Oh-Kay... this thread which I deemed somewhat silly at the outset, was a fun read as it deteriorated, or was enhanced... by a good ol duel between Orloganolorian and the Squint-Eyed Southern dude! 🤣

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I never envisioned it as PJ did in the movies,

I certainly never envisioned the "Olympic torch runner".

but thought of it as a 'blasting spell' conjoured by Sarumann from Orthanc

Really? I didn't get that impression at all, but rather that the orcs brought a mine of some kind, and paced it among the stones blocking up the culvert.

much like the way he could cause an avalanche from Caradhras onto the Redhorn Pass.

I'm going to assume you're joking here.

On the Rammas Echor:

The watchmen cried aloud, and all the men in the City stood to arms. Now ever and anon there was a red flash, and slowly through the heavy air dull rumbles could be heard.

'They have taken the wall!' men cried.'They have blasted breaches in it. They are coming!'

I believe you're right about the machines at Gondolin, but as my electricity is off at the moment, I won't stumble around looking for my copy.



Ah. I'm afraid Mr. O just doesn't "do" paranomasia, as I've learned before. I should have waited for Elthir. He "gets" me. He really gets me! 😁

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Regarding gunpowder artillery, we actually have Numenoreans (Lost Road ones) use rocket artillery ("our darts fly over leagues unerring").

OK...so Numenoreans used something like MLRS instead of gun arty, did they?And of course we all know that how tremendous the ammo will be costed by each shot of MLRS, in particular in comparison with gun arty or even trebuchet.
So without doubt this can be the some account for Gondor's military decline caused by it's economic downfall, after all, the shortage of ammo is the most direct reflection of economic decline. Yeah, such tremendous cover firepower never appeared in the siege of Minas-Tirith is the best proof.
Of course it's another matter if Numenoreans use gun arty relied on accuracy and pinpoint strike much more, of course it's popularity will get infected by economic as well, like all kinds of advanced military technology, yet maybe not as direct as the MLRS carpet bombing style...

Well, actually:


... yes, posted it twice in this thread, you're paying attention (for whatever reason 🤨 ).

What was that again?

No, no, no, one N. dammit! 🧐

Or "cannon".

😈😈😈😈😈Or maybe @Olorgando is going to have his waaagh and decided to start speaking orks accents??

For one thing, as a siege engine, the counterweight trebuchet was still used as late as the late 15th century. There was quite a bit of overlap of this specific "catapult" and cannon, as for quite a while the trebuchet had greater range, accuracy and mass of missile. This also had to do with the black powder or gunpowder used as propellant. While it was less volatile than nitroglycerine or it's "tamed" form dynamite or TNT (what made Alfred Nobel's fortune, which he then donated to found the Nobel prizes as a sort of "penance" for what predictable misuses the military put his invention to), it still has a pretty severe recoil compared to modern "smokeless" powder. Which then points to another disadvantage of gunpowder, causing a fog or smog after a certain number of volleys - and earlier musketeers at least did fire in volleys as did the English bowmen of earlier eras - none of this pure fantasy "precision" shooting so popular in Robin Hood films!

Hmmm...I'm sure JRRT never mentioned these explosion are smokeless or not...yet I prefer they might be much more possible to be the modern ones. These're my reasons.
1. Black powder will cause sulphur dioxide after explosion. And obviously we never saw any poisonous gas appear after any bombardment, no matter it's at Minas-Tirith, Helm's Deep, or so on.
2. Black power will suck if being damped, and if "Saruman's Fire" shows up in Helm's Deep is really such kind of gunpowder, then it'll have to pass via a variety of stuff will damp it such as drainage trench, unless the operators who carry these explosives really got skills.
3. The Numenoreans Exiles like Gondor, had smashed Baradur into the Stone Age during the War of the Last Alliance. This means these Numenoreans Exiles must got some horribly destructive explosives, otherwise the heavy decrease of human resources caused b the war will barely cause such destructive damage.
And I'm not sure if Black Powder really got such destructive power or not, yet we have to take the consumption spend on all the previous conflicts into account, especially those costed by killing orcs, the best choice for cannon folders.

What do you think?😎😎😎

And last the term firearms. "A firearm is a type of gun designed to be readily carried and used by a single individual." There certainly was none of that in either books or films. Even heavy machine guns often need two soldiers to operate, and with artillery the number goes up.

Oh please, NVM that, the firearms I'm discussing is according to the mandarin version, it says any weapons operated by propellant is an firearms, wildly speaking. 😅🤪😅🤪

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