About firearms

[Halasían]

I didn't get that impression at all, but rather that the orcs brought a mine of some kind, and paced it among the stones blocking up the culvert.

To my recollection, I don't remember there being anything carried. I do need to read that chapter again.

And yeah... I was joking about that bit... to see if you were paying attention. Caradhras was just a grumpy mountain in the book, though it is never said how a ountain was able to oppose the travellers and try and bury them with a wall of snow.

On the Rammas Echor:

The watchmen cried aloud, and all the men in the City stood to arms. Now ever and anon there was a red flash, and slowly through the heavy air dull rumbles could be heard.

'They have taken the wall!' men cried.'They have blasted breaches in it. They are coming!'

Ah yes... much speculation as to what the red flash and dull rumble actually was. Don't think it was gunpowder.

Ah. I'm afraid Mr. O just doesn't "do" paranomasia, as I've learned before.

Well, he is The Gandolorian...


and About Firearms...

 

[Olorgando]

...
What if the arrow was lit on fire before being shot? Does that make it a 'firearm'?
...

My hunch would be that true weapons experts (which I'm not, I just have a bit over a shelf about militaria the same size as each of the three shelves of JRRT stuff I posted under the thread "book covers") would say no.
They would probably distinguish between the launcher - bow, catapult, cannon, hand-held firearm - and the missile, so for the bow the arrow. These missiles were all, immediately after leaving the launcher, subject to the trajectory being influenced only by air friction and gravity, in contrast to what we generally consider "missiles proper" being rockets, which take their propellant with them and can thus influence trajectory against the forces of friction and gravity at least for while.

 

[Olorgando]

and About Firearms...

Someone who needs to be told that some things are not meant to be taken that literally?
And I mean, this is going to impress an enemy ... how?

 

[Halasían]

My hunch would be that true weapons experts (which I'm not, I just have a bit over a shelf about militaria the same size as each of the three shelves of JRRT stuff I posted under the thread "book covers") would say no.
They would probably distinguish between the launcher - bow, catapult, cannon, hand-held firearm - and the missile, so for the bow the arrow. These missiles were all, immediately after leaving the launcher, subject to the trajectory being influenced only by air friction and gravity, in contrast to what we generally consider "missiles proper" being rockets, which take their propellant with them and can thus influence trajectory against the forces of friction and gravity at least for while.

Someone who needs to be told that some things are not meant to be taken that literally?
And I mean, this is going to impress an enemy ... how?

 

[Olorgando]

Aw, c'mon, S-eS already posted that one. I mean, I'd have expected a triple at least. 😞

 

[Aldarion]

Aw, c'mon, S-eS already posted that one. I mean, I'd have expected a triple at least. 😞

Is this better?:

 

[Olorgando]

Is this better?:

Ah yes, dear old Q. 😁
My viewing of all Star Trek series has been quite sporadic (and "Deep Space 9" seemed to me to be "Dallas 'n' Dynasty is Space", which is not a compliment!). I mean, all of them are re-run here on different channels, but I do not feel drawn to watching them. Q left me with a feeling of being a bit, or actually way more than a bit, over the top. 🧐
Sooooo ...
I'm not sure if it can count as a quadruple, which would probably be Q's opinion ...
Or, if I were to depreciate to compensate for his relentless magniloquence, it's actually only a single. 🙄

And anyway, what's with the Star Trek quotes? As I nagged in an above post, they have very little to do with what anyone would call firearms. It seems to be all light arms ("photon" torpedoes, right!) in a very specific way - at least for the Federation Starship Enterprise. 🤔

 

[Halasían]

And anyway, what's with the Star Trek quotes? As I nagged in an above post, they have very little to do with what anyone would call firearms. It seems to be all light arms ("photon" torpedoes, right!) in a very specific way - at least for the Federation Starship Enterprise. 🤔

Gandolorian, You haven't taken into account the Sonic Disruptors the Klingons used in the Original Star Trek series.
You (nearly) did take into account of the Blasters used in Star Wars, but you edited and removed that prospect.

My hunch would be that true weapons experts (which I'm not, I just have a bit over a shelf about militaria the same size as each of the three shelves of JRRT stuff I posted under the thread "book covers") would say no.
They would probably distinguish between the launcher - bow, catapult, cannon, hand-held firearm - and the missile, so for the bow the arrow. These missiles were all, immediately after leaving the launcher, subject to the trajectory being influenced only by air friction and gravity, in contrast to what we generally consider "missiles proper" being rockets, which take their propellant with them and can thus influence trajectory against the forces of friction and gravity at least for while.

As far as firearms in Middle Earth, this post reminded me of this:

Not sure why... 🤣

 

[Olorgando]

Gandolorian, You haven't taken into account the Sonic Disruptors the Klingons used in the Original Star Trek series.

Sonic Disruptors - in the vacuum of space? 🤨
Oh well, warp speed, beaming, and photon torpedoes are all science fantasy too, so what the hey. 😁

 

[Halasían]

Sonic Disruptors - in the vacuum of space? 🤨

Um, yeah.... they were a hand-operated weapons used on planets with people and atmospheres and stuff.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I don't remember there being anything carried

With good reason: nothing is mentioned about it. It comes as a complete surprise to both defenders and reader.

Ah yes... much speculation as to what the red flash and dull rumble actually was. Don't think it was gunpowder.

Perhaps I should have said "gunpowder analogue". 😁

A legitimate argument can be made for putting various incidents in the category of spells or sorcery, given that such things certainly exist in ME; it's just my impression that the author was introducing elements pointing to a progression towards a "diabolical technology" by those seeking domination without scruple. It's of a piece with his comments in The Hobbit about the technological abilities of the goblins.

It's similar with the trenches dug by the orcs around Minas Tirith, "filled with fire, though how it was kindled or fed, by art or devilry, none could see".

By art or devilry. As is so often the case, Tolkin leaves it ambiguous, and argument could be made for either. Yet I believe a hint lies -- literally -- in the "foul sump of oily many-coloured ooze" at the bottom of the crater into which Frodo & company crawl near the Black Gate. My interpretation? Mordor has discovered petroleum.

In any event, it seems clear that all these incidents were informed by the author's experience on the Somme.

As for Caradhras, it has to do with the nature of romance-mode writing. This isn't the place to go into it, so I'll just mention Northrop Frye's comment that the romance world is neither totally alive, like the world of myth, nor mostly dead, like ours.

I must correct my earlier post: you're quite right that only dragons appear at Gondolin in the published Silmarillion; I should have made clear that I was referring to BoLT, which I assume Hisoka was talking about. Which means it certainly can't be considered canon.

But neither is it "cannon". 😉

 

[Olorgando]

Um, yeah.... they were a hand-operated weapons used on planets with people and atmospheres and stuff.

Ah, those scenes when some crew members beam down onto planets with Styrofoam rocks.
It sounds like they might be ineffective against Heavy Metal fans ... 🤔

 

[Olorgando]

... can't be considered canon.
But neither is it "cannon". 😉

First Star Trek, now a 1970s TV series about a fat private detective; at least William Conrad's character used firearms. 🤓

 

[Ealdwyn]

It's probably a mistake to wade in on this, er, lively debate 😜

Europe had gunpowder from the early medieval period - which in many other respects is consistent with the level of technology in LotR. At the Siege of Calais in the mid 1300s they had "siege guns". Hand cannons appeared in Europe in the 1400s. So I dont think there's anything incongruous in the idea of gunpowder in ME.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I think the basic question is whether firearms -- projectile weapons powered by munitions -- existed. For those, I find no evidence.

 

[Aldarion]

I think the basic question is whether firearms -- projectile weapons powered by munitions -- existed. For those, I find no evidence.

I am not aware of their existence either, not even in the Lost Road (which arguably has spaceships...).

Question: what about firelegs?

 

[Ealdwyn]

That sort of wasn't what I was getting at. I was saying that, considering the level of technology in LotR, and a similar point in earth history, you could infer the existence of weapons that use gunpowder. I agree that there's no evidence in the books to confirm their existence - hence the inference.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Question: what about firelegs?

 

[Olorgando]

It's probably a mistake to wade in on this, er, lively debate 😜

Europe had gunpowder from the early medieval period - which in many other respects is consistent with the level of technology in LotR. At the Siege of Calais in the mid 1300s they had "siege guns". Hand cannons appeared in Europe in the 1400s. So I dont think there's anything incongruous in the idea of gunpowder in ME.

😁
I think Aldarion may be the go-to for detailed information.

But as to Middle Ages: a somewhat arbitrary western term, covering about the time from when the last Western Roman Emperor Romulus Augustulus, a child, was overthrown in 476 AD to Columbus's "discovery" of America (which he believed was India right up to his death). So about 1000 years. How the experts divide this up into early, high and late, I do not know off-hand (if they even agree among themselves). Early might be up to Charlemagne or a bit, who was crowned Emperor by Pope Leo II in 800 AD. That siege of Calais by Edward III of England (following on the crushing defeat of French noble cavalry by English longbowmen (and a few others) at Crécy in 1347 AD) would definitely have been late Middle Ages. And Edward used artillery and trebuchets in that siege. As I mentioned in my earlier post, there was an overlap in the use of these weapons, trebuchets being used as late as the siege of Rhodes in 1480 AD.

I would think the time of Charlemagne might compare better to the level of (weapons) technology in LoTR than high or late Middle Ages. But this is more a gut feeling than based on detailed armaments inventory lists from Minas Tirith ... 😉

EDIT: Hey, where did those four posts come from?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I've suggested elswhere a c. fifth century parallel.